Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:41 am

Les,
you read my mind. I do plan a straight version of the track. I think one reason I held back, was to gauge reaction on the curve.Initially I was not certain if plastic would be strong enough, but it is as long as you pre-bend the rails. It was when I remembered someone asking about points that I tried them. Someone has already ordered some points so I hope they are OK.
I have another idea/concept which will be developed alongside the straight track, which I hope may solve some of the problems with track across baseboard joints. Just think of a piece of inset track on each board, and inserting short lengths of rail to cross the gap, with dropper wires to power these connecting rails. No rail joiners required, and I am hoping the WSF can take the wear and tear. Less dependent of super accurate baseboard pegs to line up boards. It can be done now with the inset track, but I want to do something lower profile to look like sleepered track. The 'chair' will be continuous to hold as much of the rail as possible, as it is in effect is with the sleepered track. My bridge 'rail', will also do the same job, and I have a small layout where this will be tested. It can even work in theory, with care, on curved track and track at odd angles.
I keep bouncing between projects, as it is best way to stop boredom, but someone has already asked for one of my locos to be resized into 7/8th in/ft scale and then in FUD, as they don't like WSF. It won't be cheap, but is a relatively easy job for me. Just need a break.
Simon Dawson
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Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby trac555 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:41 pm

Simon,
When you produce one in 7/8s scale please post a picture -- I would love to see it. :shock:
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:37 pm

Some more progress, after a lot of thinking (sorry about the burning smell) and research both here and on the rest of the internet. I'm now reasonably confident that I can make 1:24 scale corrugated iron in scale 8' x 3' sheets without having to ask how to do it :D .

I've measured everything very carefully, and have final positions for the buildings and loading bay, as well as a few ideas for a couple of set pieces of detail. I've decided what the buildings are going to be made from in model form although that's well down the line.

The principal building along the back of the scene (where the raw cat litter is processed and bagged) will be of corrugated iron construction, probably over a wooden frame. It will be just under 16 scale feet tall (two sheets of 8' long corrugated iron, with a scale 6" overlap on the joins) and a curved, hay shed type roof curving towards the back of the model. This will have an operating, sliding door in it to allow one loaded wagon at a time to be pushed into the shed for unloading. The control panel (such as it is) will be built into the back of this building.

The other building at the left hand edge will be very low relief (1cm deep) and of made of brick. It will be slightly higher (9 1/2" or so) than the processing shed, and have windows etc to represent the company offices. There will be a loading bay in front of it, also covering part of the processing shed. A second, non working door from the processing shed will be where the bagged cat litter is sent to be loaded onto flat wagons to go to the distribution area, which is off stage.

This actually has the potential to make an interesting shunting puzzle during times of high production, which is an unexpected bonus. With a little more room and a third track a reverse Inglenook puzzle would be on the cards.

This will all make much more sense when the mocked up buildings are in place, so far I've made the loading bay and part of the front of the processing shed, which currently look like this:

Image

as the glue isn't dry yet.

Simon Dawson has kindly pointed out his range of 3D printed Gn15 track sections, which includes a very interesting 10cm radius 90 degree curve. There is a very handy printable template available form his Shapeways site, so I printed two of them and taped them together to make the curve I need. In place it looks like this:

Image

and doesn't quite reach where I would like it to (The radius on the model is 12.5 cm). This is all to the good, however, as I can add a very short straight section to the middle of the two curves, and have a very small bridge over a culvert at the right hand edge, which will take away from the "flat earth" look of the scene by allowing the ground level to drop a little.

All in all a good day, I'm happy with progress. I should get a little more done at the mock up buildings tomorrow, which will give a much better idea of the whole thing and hopefully highlight ant pitfalls that I've not thought of. There are always a few, somewhere :D

Les
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:11 pm

Good fun Les. Now I need to look at Simon's track. I'm not sure about what a 'reverse Inglenook' is though. :?: (Novice I am...)
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:02 pm

Nevadablue wrote:I'm not sure about what a 'reverse Inglenook' is though.
If the reverse of in is out, then wouldn't a reverse Inglenook be an Outglenook?
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:11 pm

Simon - the straight track can't come fast enough tbh, but don't put yourself under pressure to get it done. I like the idea of a bridge track piece too, this won't affect me for a bit as everything I've planned fits on one board, but it will be a very useful thing to have available.

Ken, the Inglenook puzzle is described really well here:

http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/ ... enook.html

I've so far resisted all urges to build one, as it would be the last thing built for a long time :D. You're no novice, either - I'd love to be up to your standard!

Willow Creek - I think you are right there, and an Outglenook sounds like something odd enough for in here, certainly!

Some progress today with the mock up buildings, which now look like this:

Image

and seems ok, at least to me. Opinions are very, very welcome, however :)

Everything seems to me to look more or less in proportion, although the left hand building (the one with "brick wall" written on it) will be 1 1/2" - 2" higher than it is here. There will also be a corrugated iron lean to roof over the back part of the loading bay to keep the rain off both workers and the finished product before it is loaded on to flat cars for removal. A couple of folded tarpaulins should add to the look of the thing.

The area from the edge of the loading dock to more or less the end of the processing shed (the corrugated iron building) will be a concrete apron, the area to the right of that will be bare ground, with weeds and some scrubby grass. The track will be fairly well kept as it is more or less constant use, and the company has money enough for repairs and maintenance, although its by no means wealthy.

I'm thinking of a couple of small set pieces to add detail to the whole thing (I know - this is getting well ahead of myself). I think there should be a workbench, possibly a re-purposed dolls house kitchen table with a vice on one end and a few tools on it, probably at the end of the loading bay, on the sticky-out bit under the roof, as well as a couple of jerricans and a funnel for emergency locomotive refueling.

Pete the mechanic is holding a spanner and has a puzzled look on his face, so I might have him studying a rusty and derelict piece of machinery on the waste ground inside the curve with a view to returning it to service.

Next is to Gn15-ise some OO track, make a rail bender (suitable screws were acquired today) and do some experiments with extruded foam and various means to attach track to it. I'll need to think about how to make the buildings, though I've the beginnings of a plan for that.

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:58 pm

straight track with large sleepers now available.
Image

it is basic

templates now for all the sleepered track
template for sleepered track
. I would like to do some jubilee type track or similar.
Simon Dawson
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Simon, you are a lovely man :D

Order to follow once I cash in some scrap later in the week :D :D

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:01 pm

It was no trouble, just needed a break in work. I have just ordered some level crossing parts and if they work properly , I will be able to get back onto the door designs.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:07 am

Thanks Les! I've saved all the Inglenook stuff for study. I think I have space for one. Looks like fun.
I like what you have done and what you have planned. Watching... :D

Simon, I like the sleepered track too. Nice work.
Ken

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:25 pm

No worries Ken - glad to add to the project list :D

I've been thinking today about how to hold the buildings up, with access to the track at the rear for loading / unloading ore cars, and also as a location for the control panel. I'm thinking of two thin 3 or 4 mm MDF panels fitted to the outside back of the existing box / foam structure, at right angles with the joint in the back left corner.

The back piece (to support the processing shed structure, control panel, door mechanism and speaker(s)) will look at bit like this:

Image

The black is the existing ply box / foam, the red is the mdf panel, blue with rounded corners are cut outs to allow for access to stock, and the blue rectangle is a cut out for a small piece of aluminium to mount the section switches etc on. I may well get a mini track plan printed onto this, 'cos I'm friendly with a sign maker :D .

The left hand side is basically just a blank piece of mdf to support the 10mm deep (very) low relief office building.

I like things to be as near to perfect as I can make them, and know very well where my limitations are regarding freehand cutting. I always let myself down, so try to cut things using power tools wherever possible. As the back section of mdf is beyond my skills to make to my expectations, I'm going to get it laser cut by the same people who cut the turntable tops.

Once the mdf sections are made, I'll seal any bits of them that could potentially get damp with white paint (on the inside) to aid visibility, and vanish the outsides to match the rest of the finished baseboard. Poundland will provide :D :D

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:24 pm

So.. one trip to the scrapyard later, and the modelling budget has been increased sufficiently to buy some Gn15 track bases from Simon via Shapeways - two curved sections and two straights, to be going on with. This will apparently arrive towards the end of the month, which suits well as there is plenty to be getting on with in the meantime :D

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:08 pm

lesmond wrote:So.. one trip to the scrapyard later, and the modelling budget has been increased sufficiently to buy some Gn15 track bases from Simon via Shapeways
and thereby transformed your signature phrase verb tense of "Because I can" to "because I did". 8)
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:57 pm

Les, thanks.
The estimated dates are only an estimate. normally anywhere between one and two weeks, max. Depends on what else is being produced.
Simon Dawson
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:55 pm

Willow Creek - I did, did again today with a load of "dead" electric motors, and will all being well continue to do so :D. Cash paying scrapyards are getting rare, but there are still one or two about.

Simon - no problem, I'll report on arrival.

I've measured and made a proper drawing of the mdf piece for the back of the layout. To fit two access holes, plus room for a small control panel - this is recessed by the depth of the mdf (4 mm) and will protect the toggle switches from a fair bit of damage as opposed to having them flush mounted - the height has had to increase by 1 1/2" or so. This will have a knock on effect on the other piece too, as it will also need to increase by the same amount to keep the height difference between the two buildings.

The drawing will go to the laser cutters tomorrow, and the cut job should come back early next week. I'll trial fit it and make sure the extra height doesn't look stupid when it does.

I've also been thinking about track section wiring. The easy way to do it would be to drop a wire from each rail of each track section and join them all up, so that the whole thing is one big section, with one engine in "steam" (combustion :D ?). I've decided to divide it into several different isolated sections, to allow two locomotives to operate for added interest.

To bring the wires through the pink foam and ply base, I'm going to use thin tubes to carry the track feed wires to just below the rails, then solder them to the bottom of the rails, so that the feed wires will be all but invisible. I'm thinking of fine brass tube for this, as they will also act as locating dowels for the foam until it is finally glued in place.

My wee brain hurts :shock:

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:27 pm

I'm currently on hold while waiting for the track bases from Shapeways, and the back panel from the laser cutting firm. I've a fair few other projects to be getting on with, but really want to progress this one before I do too much else and it gets put to the side again :(

I've been thinking last night and today about how to hide the 180 degree curve around the processing shed, and make it a bit less obvious that the trains go nowhere. On the original, the sap shed was much further forward, with a big tree in the way to cover the entrance to the track at the rear.

This would look a bit daft on my effort given the industrial nature of the model, so I've decided on a tall circular tank instead. I'm going to use a piece of plastic downspout pipe for this, covered in paper with rivet detail to represent steel sheeting. I'll get the long suffering laser cutter to make me an mdf top and bottom for it, then add pipework, valves etc until it looks "right". The basic pipe, salvaged from a pile in my back yard, looks like this:

Image

I'll trim the ends so that it's square tomorrow morning when I nip down to work to feed the cats. As the height of the processing shed has had to increase, I can add a very small access door (an ice cream factory I worked in between school and university had a roof access about 2' 6" square, so I've prototype for it) and a catwalk across to the top of the tank. The tank will rest on two fairly solid steel beams set on the concrete apron, with supporting steelwork.

I was also thinking about another, smaller tank above the sliding door, and thought an Airfix / Dapol OO water tank might do the job, again supported on suitable steel supports. I was fairly sure I had one from too many years ago in a box of spare bits, but of course can't find it for love nor money. While in the loft looking for it I did however find some other bits I'd forgotten I had, so happy there.

Once safely back down the loft ladder, I sat and looked at the model with the mock up buildings in place, and actually LOOKED at it, rather then just looked. I've decided that a tank of some sort is needed above the door, just not a square one (as well as that the Airfix one is easy to spot, and a bit of a cliche, in my mind, anyway). So I've decided on a cylindrical tank, mounted horizontally, made in the same manner as the bigger, vertical one. The catwalk to the top of the bigger tank can pass over the top of this one. For access to it, I'm thinking of nothing more than a long ladder kept conveniently somewhere out of the way.

I want the scene to look plausible, without being cluttered, which is a fine balance to achieve, so will mock everything up, look at it, think, and look again before I make anything permanent.

In the same rummage for the Airfix tank, I found a stash of plastic tubes around 1/4" outside diameter from a skip hoke last year, which I'd forgotten about:

Image

This will do nicely to carry the power and control cables through the baseboard and foam to the track and all of the other places they need to be. I wasn't sure if the extruded foam could be drilled with an HSS drill in a piller drill (to ensure a vertical hole) without making a terrible mess, so I did an experiment on a scrap bit:

Image

Image

As it happens it works perfectly well, and the plastic tube is a nice fit in the hole. Some hot glue will secure the underneath end to the ply base, all being well the diameter of the drilled hole will keep the upper piece in place in the foam, but this can be glued if needed. The top edge of the tube will be 1mm or so below the top edge of the foam. A faint bell is ringing to tell me not to run wires directly through foam without a tube of some sort as insulation, but I can't think why this is or find a link to it. Better safe than sorry, though, and it will look neater as well.

With a piece of track placed experimentally (this is OO Hornby settrack) the tube disappears quite well:

Image

and will be invisible when either covered with ballast or as will be the case with a lot of the track on this model covered by model concrete.

So, very little progress on the model, but lots of background work done.

Sorry for a very long post :D

Les
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:57 am

Hey, cool! Something I've thought of doing here with a storage tank, and between a couple buildings on my long dormant Gn15 project is having piping run on a miniature truss bridge type support over track to an implied connection to something in the off-layout world.
That idea has its ancient roots in steam piping to distribute steam for building heat on the various navy bases Dad was stationed at. As well as the steam pipes running between buildings they would occasionally have horizontal or vertical square-cornered u-shaped jogs in the pipes to allow for expansion and contraction.
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:52 am

Yes, watching for the details of both of your layouts. :)
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:11 pm

Willow Creek - I know the sort of pipework you mean, not too far from where I live used to be full of industry (shipyard, aircraft factory, ropeworks, a cigarette factory and the beautifully named Sirocco Works, which made ventilation system for the Titanic and many others) now mostly gone, but I remember all sorts of gantries, pipes, strange hissing sounds and even stranger bends, much as you describe.

These:

Image

were put to good use on another layout on the forum (I forget which one, to my shame) as high pressure air piping for a mine, and I've stolen the idea for my own project. I found them on sale just after Christmas, and invested in six packets :D

Ken - thanks for watching, and for your kind comments. I'm also following your progress :D

Today, in the absence of parts (I really need Simon's track bases to get an idea of their height and sleeper width, thankfully they have been shipped) I decided to do some overdue work at the turntable. It had no means of transferring power to the rails, and the current mounting was slightly off centre and not big enough to mount to the ply base. As and when I make a mk2 it will be a lot less complicated, although in its defence this one was more a proof of concept than meant to be a working model.

So, I added two wires to eventually solder to the sides of the rails, and made a new sub base which is bolted to the existing, slightly offset one. The hot glue gun was very handy to secure the wires to the hard disk platter and the mdf bits.

Image

Image

Image

The blu-tack isn't permanent :D

Image

I've also made a drawing of the top section of the turntable, which will have a top of chequer plate plasticard to the sides and between the rails. This will extend over the mdf top to the ends of the rails, inset 1mm at each end to allow clearance to and alignment with the entrance and exit tracks. I need two packing pieces 2mm thick to bring the level up to the height of the sleepers in the track section. I'll go and pollute the laser cutter on Tuesday and see what he can make for me, as once again he can cut far more accurately than me.

Totally off topic, I found a (working :shock: :shock: ) Denon amplifier in a skip, and have been offered a half finished 009 layout free of charge.

All in all, a good, productive weekend.

Les
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:56 pm

Les, if it helps, rail height comes out same as standard OO gauge track. Sleepers are about 40mm by 12mm.
if it has been shipped, it should be with you by Tuesday. Just checked my email, as it was first time the straights were printed they tell me that they have printed OK, and that was today. Assume deliveries are similar over there.
I have my fingers crossed that my latest level cross mechanism works(arriving Monday), as I can then be confident the door opening mechanism will also work. Talking of which I have completed my shutter and window design. It won't be cheap for complete unit with windows, but I am hoping it will be worth while. If it all works then a simple door mechanism will be .... simple.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:14 pm

You guys work WAY too hard on those live rails. For a little layout like this, go dead rail! Couldn't be easier. 8)

Les, I remember those pipe straws too. Where was that? Now I need to go look them up.
Ken

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:13 am

Simon - thanks for that. In hindsight I should have just asked :? Lookimg forward to the door / window mechanism.

Ken - I really enjoy the wiring and control aspect of it, probably as much as driving the trains. The R/C system you use has me thinking, though. The layout with the straws as piping was a small mine with a big static compressor at the entrance, and really excellent "rocks".

Les
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lesmond
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:58 pm

In to work reasonably early this morning, so I took a few minutes and cut the two salvaged pieces of plastic pipe square to make the tanks. The black one will be the big vertical one, and I'll see what size of the grey looks best for the smaller one above the door.

Image

I also made a rail bender in the style described by Steve Bennett:

Image

from two bits of scrap wood glued together (so I can clamp it into the vice while bending) and three screws from the big box of spare screws.

Happy :D .

Les
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Bilco » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:49 pm

Nevadablue wrote:Les, I remember those pipe straws too. Where was that? Now I need to go look them up.


Was it this? Image
It's on this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8771&start=50

This is another type, made from old felt-tip pens and washers Image

and

Image The thread is here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5506&start=75
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:31 pm

Bill, you are a lovely man :D I owe you a cuppa / pint (of your choice).

Thank you for the pictures and links - I wasn't aware of the felt tip / washers variant, looks like Poundland will be seeing me soon.

Les
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