Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

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Re: Variant of the Carl bArendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:56 am

Yes Bill, your layouts. So much inspiration... I DID build an Eimco! (not... it is a Porter, so much for old brain power)
Yesterday I found the straw fittings on Amazon and ordered a couple of sets for my mines. :D

Thanks!
Last edited by Nevadablue on Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:09 pm

I collected the first piece of laser cut mdf yesterday - this will make the back panel of the layout. Very well pleased:

Image

This is the inside view. The top of the mdf will be the roof level of the processing shed. The black pipe to the right shows where the scenic break tank will be. There is plenty of room for a gantry across to the top of it.

Next job is to measure up the left hand end piece, and get it laser cut, along with the tank ends and the side pieces for the turntable. I'm going to get these made from 2mm clear acrylic material.

According to the UPS tracker on the Shapeways site, the track bases will be delivered tomorrow, so the weekend should be productive.

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:47 am

Cool, getting there. I am curious to see what the cut edges of that acrylic will look and feel like.
somewhat different material, but the principle might apply - for transparent guards at a couple spots on our club's HO modular layout we opted to create it reasonably cheaply by slicing up the clear cover sheet from inexpensive poster frames - maybe 0.75 to 1mm thick? - I tell ya what, square corners on that stuff are sharp :!: :shock: Yours truly found that out, truly.
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:23 pm

Its taking shape alright, albeit slowly. I'm interested in the acrylic myself as sharp edges are a consideration. Lots of sticking plasters and bandages around if needed, though :D . I'll have those bits next week, so we'll see.

The Shapeways delivery of Simon's track bases arrived today, typically i'm flat out at work and can't get a proper look at them, although first impressions are excellent. I'll get a good look tonight when I get in.

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:42 pm

I'm ready to see those track bases 'live and in color' when you get time. :D
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:01 pm

Les, just take care. With the curved track, pre-bend the rail first. If it is a tight fit, I try some thinner rail(eg code 75) first. There is a fit a variance with 3D printing. The latest item I got was very loose on the rail, but it is easy to pack it out. The difference between tight and loose is only a very small fraction of a mm.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:31 pm

Ken - photos to follow later this evening :D

Simon - will do. I've made a rail bender through the week, and will get some trial fitting done over the weekend. Thank you for the tip off - it must be difficult to design to such small tolerances.

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:59 pm

These are the track sections as they arrived this afternoon:

Image

As mentioned above, I'm very well pleased with them, the print is sharp and clear, and they certainly look the part.

This is them on the model:

Image

Image

Image

They will look excellent when painted and with rails :D - many thanks to Simon for making them available.

I've drawn the rest of the laser cut parts I need - the end panel, tank ends and turntable side pieces - and will get them left in tomorrow.

All good :D

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:58 pm

They do look good on the layout don't they. :D
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:11 am

looks good.
I presume you are still thinking of a door that opens. Still some fine tuning on my mechanism. Testing something else today, but hope to order sample later today.

I think that my next big development for the track should be something more resembling , the metal sleepered portable track. So many different shapes and designs, and that is just the Decauville stuff.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:41 am

Simon, I'm working on this roundhouse and it will have double doors on each side. Would your door mechanisms be suitable for such a thing? The roundhouse may be in a difficult to access corner of the layout so remotely operated doors would be nice.

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:02 am

Ken,
my system is so simple(in theory), The mechanism is only about 5mm thick, so can easily fit on top of baseboard, and the control arm can pass under rails. Access might be the only problem. It is designed to work at 90 degrees , but you have a choice of 4 positions still. I could do the gear at a different angle. All that is then require is door fitted to a 2.4mm or 2.5mm square tube(preferably metal for strength but might get away with plastic if you can get the square tubing that small).
As long as the door is also held at top, on a pivot, then there should be no need to have a hole in baseboard, unless you want to operate from below.
Can't say much more, but open to suggestions. My first sample, for level cross, had a few design faults, which have actually resulted in a much better design. I am just about to order a new sample of the mechanism, but have found I need to change something on the window version, which is similar but different and it was getting more and more complex, until I realised I could make it even simpler.

Just looking at your photo, I don't think it would be possible to have a top pivot. I think the pivot point is offset as well. That is not a problem, and might actually mean a pivot point can be fixed to outside of wall(assuming doors opening outwards). Clearance on middle pier might be a problem, but there should be room for 2 mechanisms side by side, as long as the operating arms don't clash. I was having a similar problem with the windows until I realised it was not that complex.
Simon Dawson
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Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:00 pm

Simon - thank you, I'm very well pleased. I'm thinking of a sliding door for this one, something like this:

Image

operated by a small servo. I'm very interested in your door mechanism for future projects, though. A 5mm thick mechanism is very interesting indeed.

Ken - any more about your roundhouse? Liking it very much :D .

I've more plans than time at present and if things go according to plan not a lot of time for the next year or so either :D

Minor progress today, lots of laying out track sections for the final measurement and alignment, some head scratching, then marking out the positions for the power feeds for the track. I've decided to have five switched power sections, shown here (apologies - my MS Paint skills are lacking!):

Image

which should allow for two locomotives to operate on the line, hinting at a bigger system off scene. This will lead to some very interesting train movements, and add a lot of operational interest.

I'm also making it this way simply because I can, in the best mad scientist tradition (Q: "why did you reanimate the eight foot bad tempered corpse?" A: "because I could" (giggle)).

For the visible sections of track (the ones not in the shed, or under the concrete hard standing) I'm going to use Simon's track sections with Code 100 rail looted from a piece of Peco On30 flex track, suitable painted and ballasted, with the odd weed and oil stain for good measure. The rest will be made up of Hornby R600 straight track sections (also Code 100) from more years ago than I really want to think about, and the Atlas right angle crossing. It is Code 83, so a little modification may be needed there to keep the rail heights the same.

I marked the positions for the track feeds on the foam, then drilled a suitable hole for the plastic tubes to carry the feed wires to the track. There are all in the most discreet locations available to me, as I plan to have the wires totally invisible on the finished layout. With the foam in place on the ply base, I then used a pencil through the holes in the foam to mark the top of the ply for corresponding holes for the tubes, then drilled those too. The finished job looks like this:

Image

Image

and the fitted tubes do a really good job of holding the foam in place even without glue.

I now need to make a further, larger hole for the wires going to and coming from the control panel through the foam and ply base. I don't have a suitable tube at home, but do have in the scrap metal box at work, so will collect it tomorrow and see if its as good a fit as I think :D.

The drawings for the last of the laser cut bits have been left in and will be ready on Tuesday.

Slow but steady progress, but happy overall. Apologies for another long post.

Les
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:11 am

Thanks Simon.

Les, first you must not apologize for long posts. I need things to read. :D

The sliding door is something I want to model also. My roundhouse is part of a little module that I may not have posted here, maybe it was at NGRM. I'll post something here in a new thread so I don't disturb this one any more.

Watching with interest as always.
I did post the roundhouse here. It was last year's challenge entry. Unfinished of course.

http://gn15.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10188&hilit=tobar
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:09 am

Ken, thanks as ever for the kind words.

I've found and am following the Tobar Junction thread on the Narrow Gauge Forum, and will have a look for and read at the rest.

I'm off to work in a bit to feed the cats and grab a few bits for some experiments based on a discussion with Leanne (the long suffering mrs) last night.

More later - have to make the most of the weekends :D

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:21 pm

Quite a bit to report today, a bit more done, and lots of things considered which will hopefully pay dividends down the line a little.

The original plan to carry the power and control wires to the control panel was to drill a hole in the foam, drill a corresponding hole in the ply base, insert a fairly wide piece of metal pipe, and use it as a conduit for the bundled wires. As I've over complicated the whole thing beyond sense for the reasons given above, the following connections need to go to the panel:

5x track sections - 2 wires each (10 total)

Lucky green LED - 2 wires

Amplifier power - 2 wires

Amplifier volume - 3 wires

Sliding door control switch - 2 wires

Lights - 2 wires

So, 21 total. Thankfully I've lots and lots of wire in all sorts of different colours, so this won't be a problem, and should make for a lovely looking wiring diagram. I've some really nice miniature switches which will look well and suit the very small size of the control panel (its 120mm wide x 77 mm high). The wiring on the viewing side will be invisible, and well hidden on the operator side.

The conduit looked like this after I'd cut a suitable bit off it:

Image

before I shortened it to the correct length of 56mm to pass through the ply and foam. It needs a 15mm diameter hole. There isn't a lot of room between the back track (the one inside the shed) and the mdf back piece, and as well there is a bracing piece supporting the side of the ply box right where the hole needs to go. This is screwed / glued in place, and isn't going to move without a huge redesign.

That scuppered the conduit idea :( .

I then had to go out for a bit, but the thinking head was on, and I came up with the following solution. I drilled a 10mm hole in the ply base, 30mm in from the edge and well clear of the brace, then carved a recess 30mm x 30mm x 10mm into the foam. Then I drilled two holes down through the foam and added two more plastic pipes to carry the wires up to where they need to be below and slightly to the left of the control panel where they can run up the inside of the back mdf panel out of sight.

Image

This modification will be hidden by the ply back, and will provide plenty of room for the wires to pass without any danger of squeezing them too tightly together or nipping them.

I've also been thinking about the concrete hard standing around the turntable, tank and the edge of the loading bay. There are many ways shown online to make model concrete with embedded track, I've studied a lot of them, and none really sit will with me in terms of mess and end result.

I've also looked at painted card, painted foamcore and downloaded / printed papers. While these probably will look grand in smaller scales, they really don't in 1:24.

I found this link:

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Rocky-Terra ... adel-Games

which isn't quite what I was looking for, but which made my brain clank a bit harder and smell more of burning insulation :? . I'm in the happy position of having a stove in my living room, which burns coal and wood in equal measure. It also generates fine, grey ash.

To avoid domestic wrath, I bought a sieve and went outside with the ash bucket. The resulting powder looks like this:

Image

after a very rough sort to get the big bits out. The colour looks about right to me - the photograph doesn't do it justice. I need a layer 3mm thick to cover the sleepers of the OO settrack I'm planning to use where the track is embedded with just the rails showing.

So, I'm going to do some experiments. As a much younger man I worked mixing and pouring real concrete, so have a bit of an idea how it works. While at work today collecting the conduit, I cut a scrap piece of pink foam in half, and also cut some thin timber (a skip find, as usual) to make shuttering. This is held in place by cutting a thin slit into the foam and bracing the back end with dead matches.

Image

Only two sides are currently done to make photographing it easier. I'll finish this tomorrow, then experiment with a mixture of sieved ash, PVA and water until I find a suitable consistency which will dry looking something like a tamped concrete surface.

To avoid covering the rails with the mixture, I'm planning to make a guard to keep the flangeways open on either side of the rails. The two long and one short track sections (long - to the loading bay from the turntable, to the processing shed from the turntable, short - turntable to the 3D printed track leading into the curve) are all straight, so this will be an easy thing to make. It will look like this end on:

Image

I'm going to add a gutter with a couple of gratings around the edge of the loading bay, and a manhole cover to the right of the track leading to the processing shed using this mould:

http://www.dioramadebris.co.uk/124-scal ... 7-72-p.asp

which should look well.

I'm also going to see if I can cast the top of the loading bay in "concrete" and make the hard standing in several sections as such an area wouldn't all have been poured at once. This leaves room for grass and weeds in the joints.

That's it for tonight, if anyone is still here and also awake :D :D

Les
Last edited by lesmond on Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Nevadablue » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:03 pm

I like your concrete work ideas. The diorama debris is neat stuff too. I have a brick mold from them or someone similar. I think you should build the building out of hand laid bricks. :lol:
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:57 am

lesmond wrote:Quite a bit to report today, a bit more done, and lots of things considered which will hopefully pay dividends down the line a little. ... and also cut some thin timber (a skip find, as usual) to make shuttering.

Les, you have some cool stuff going on there. 8)

Hmm, my mind is having fun, helped along by pain meds, "... and also cut some thin timber ..." Say, how about an industry named the "Thin Timbers Foundation and Fencing Contractors Ltd." It was supposed to be Tim Timbers, the owner, but the sign painter was taking the same stuff I am. :lol: :roll:
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:45 am

Gentlemen - thank you both for the kind words. The first sample pour takes place tonight.

Ken - the mrs did suggest (also as a joke) using scale bricks - I must be getting obsessed as I briefly thought: "thats not a bad idea..." then reality intervened, thankfully. I never was much of a brickie with the full size ones, so maybe not..

I do have a bag of 1:24 bricks somewhere around, which are going to feature on this layout either as a pile in a corner or holding something up.

Willow Creek - that is a cool name for a railway - a set piece could be the painter and the owner having a row about the sign. Not good to be in pain, but sometimes meds can help the creative juices :D

I've a wee project festering at the back of my mind called "Fat Les's U-Boat Works" which involves an alternate history for the late 1930's / early 40's and the submarine becoming the principal vessel for oceanic trade. If there is ever time I'll do something with it. I will need to either discover the Fountain of Youth or be bitten by a vampire to be around long enough to make all the stuff I want to :P .

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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:00 am

Les, depending on the bond you want, there are vac formed sheets of bricks available. Some garden railway/g gauge suppliers might be able to supply, but Plastruct USA do have it I think. They used to be happy to send to UK, especially if it is a product that EMA in UK can not supply. Thinking of which, check EMA first, as they do have some 1/24 scale items. Sometimes same products are listed as 1/25th scale. A very small difference, but architects tend to use metric these days, even when the model products are 'bodged' into that scale.
Sliding doors are a lot easier, possibly a bit of a cheat. Easier if inside building as sliders hidden. One thing to consider is how the door would have been used in reality. For access quite common to have a small door in it so someone can get through from outside. Sliding doors are not the easiest to lock from outside, unless you use a lower secure padlock. I have one on my French house, and have asked a few locksmiths, and no one knows of a locking mechanism for these older doors. I have an idea, but not certain. From a modelling point of view there would have to be some sort of door into that part of the building. For convenience it might be preferred to be in the sliding door. I know from my own experience how inconvenient it is not being able to lock door from outside.
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:56 pm

Hi Simon,

I'd forgotten about EMA, although their catalogue is around somewhere (either here or at work). I had thought of this:

http://www.anticsonline.co.uk/1723_1_2726536.html

as it seemed reasonably priced and more or less what I'm looking for. A couple of sheets at the very most should be enough with plenty left over for other projects.

I've an up and over door on my loading bay in work, some of the other units have a small door in the big door to allow access. The sliding door on the processing shed on the model is just to allow access for loaded ore wagons, and is based on one I know well on a friends shed where large loads come and go fairly regularly. It is locked with a big chain and padlock, as its not really designed for good looks :D .

The door on the model loading platform will be wide enough for a pallet load of bagged cat litter to pass through in order to be hand loaded on to flat cars, this will be where the staff come and go from the processing shed. I will probably put another false door in the brick wall to allow access to the brick office building, under the loading dock roof.

The first "model concrete" experiment went well earlier on. There are photographs, however Photobucket is messing around, so I'll post them tomorrow.

I mixed up 1/4 of a measuring cup of ash, and added two parts PVA to one part water using a plastic shot glass (from Poundland, as usual :D ) as a measure. The resulting mixture was nice and "goopy" and filled the wood shuttering nicely, to a depth of around 4mm. I tamped it down with a spare piece of wood, and have left it alone since.

First impressions are fairly good, the colour is somewhere between about right and a shade too dark , but hopefully will lighten when it dries. This isn't a huge problem, though. The surface texture looks about right too, so I may be on to something here.

Lots more experimentation to get the correct depth consistently and also how to embed track and detail need to happen before I'll be putting it anywhere near the model.

The rest of the bits are due from the laser cutter tomorrow, so all smiles about that. More as I have it.

Les
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:02 pm

Les,
I have been dealing with EMA for over 30 years. I even visited their shop, before they moved to a warehouse. They have a lot of useful info on their website. I had forgotten about that 1/24th scale plastic range from South Eastern Finecast, but makes sense as they do a range of 1/24th scale vehicle kits(a bit out of my price range though).

Padlocked doors are OK, as long as you don't want access both ways. I also think they are relatively insecure, as a good large bolt-cutter will remove them quickly. Also looks like you are hiding something so could attract unwelcome interest. Looks nice on a model, as long as you don't plan to open the door.
Now an up and over door, that would be a challenge!!!
Simon Dawson
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Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
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Interests: HO, On30, G/Hn15, regular G, kites, model rockets, the occasional model boat, retro sci-fi miniatures game.

Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:12 am

lesmond wrote:The door on the model loading platform will be wide enough for a pallet load of bagged cat litter to pass through in order to be hand loaded on to flat cars,...
Litter by the carload :!: :idea: :D What's their number :?:
Image1_gp by Forrest Wood, on Flickr
(photo actually from several years back)

https://youtu.be/Lm0Ch0H2Idc
Mighty MoMo watchin' the litter go
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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lesmond
GnatterBox Centurion
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Interests: Narrow gauge of all types, Gn15 most recently, making models with a budget of £0.00

Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby lesmond » Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:11 pm

Here we go..

Photobucket is playing tonight, so here are the pictures of model concrete experiment no 1.

I finished the mould:

Image

poured the mixture as detailed above:

Image

as displayed by the lovely Leanne's hand (I had red nail polish on yesterday).

and let it set until this evening, although at least another day would probably be better. The colour is still far too dark, nearer tarmac than concrete (although this may come in useful in other projects), but the consistency - rubbery and slightly flexible - is spot on. It has shrunk slightly as it has dried, too, leaving some interesting cracks in the surface, which again look about right to me.

The edges are too cracked, although I had to use a knife blade to seperate the wooden mould sides, which caused some damage.

Image

Image

Due to the rubbery texture, it is easy to cut with a sharp knife, which may help to clean up the rough edges somewhat.

Image

It has also stuck to the pink foam very well indeed, and hasn't caused any adverse reactions.

I'd value opinions, and please don't hold back.

For version 2, I'm going to try some talc mixed with the ash to lighten the colour, and also make a runnier mixture. I'm carefully recording the amounts used in order to be able to replicate the correct one when I get there :D .

I collected the last bits from the laser cutter today, so now have the end piece with an access hole to the rear track:

Image

also giving the height of the low relief brick building.

The ends for the tanks look like this:

Image

and the side pieces for the turntable make it start to look like something:

Image

The track isn't fully down yet, but the acrylic pieces will be flush with the sleepers. The edges of the cut acrylic are smooth, so no danger of a cut at all.

The rest of the week is busy with work and other commitments, so it will be the weekend before I get much more done.

Next is to make the control panel from a piece of aluminium, and bolt it in place. I'll fix the plastic tubes for the wires in place in the foam, and make a start on the wiring runs on the bottom of the ply. I also need to glue the ends on to the tanks, make sure they are flush, then make a rivet embossing tool for the paper covering.

Its all good, and I'm loving it.

Les
"Because I Can"

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Willow Creek Traction
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Re: Variant of the Carl Arendt SAP Line

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:57 am

The concrete project is beyond my experience; there I'm going to be more a spectator than contributor.
One contribution, though - given the forms are wood, maybe line the forms with masking tape or something to keep the wood from sucking moisture out of the mix; and to keep the mix from adhering to the wood?
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934


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