V-tipper wagons

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V-tipper wagons

Postby AlastairH » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:48 am

I have thoughts of building a layout incorporating V-tipper wagons, and see there are various available if not scratch building. Slater Plasticard do one, and Nigel Lawton does one which is described as HO scale and from the dimensions really is a 1/87 model. I am going to use the HO/OO gauge track with the 1/24ish scale models and buildings etc. Is there a dimensioned drawing giving the sizes needed for such a scale? Is it also realistic to try this with what effectively is quite a narrow gauge for a wagon which is top heavy when loaded, or is it better to change scales?

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby Bilco » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:01 am

Hi Alastair,

If you do a search for 'v-tippers' there are lots of threads with ideas for you.
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https://sites.google.com/site/myoldlayouts/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/149926300@N07/albums

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby AlastairH » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:35 pm

Thanks for the thought. I've spent a long time searching through the list for v-tippers, but still can't find anything about the sizes/dimensions of a 1/24 scale model.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby KEG » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:50 pm

V-tippers come in different seizes. Can´t be very large on 15 inch gauge.

Here are pictures and some mearsurements of the 3-D printing developments of a small
Decauville tipper at a German Forum. http://www.die-feldbahnsinnigen.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=981&p=5866&hilit=Decauville+Kipplore#p5866

250 litres means approx. a quarter of a cubic meter. The kit is offered at Shapeways.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:53 pm

The Fleischmann Magic Train ones are a good size for Gn15. I use them on my APA box modules. I have also built similar sized hoppers to fit Fleischmann HO ones which have a similar(but different) chassis. Sometimes see these on ebay.

I remembered posting some pictures here before but my computer is playing up. I got the link to my photo though
Image

Image
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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby KEG » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:22 am

The V-tipper question comes up in forums every few months. Still no one has ever shown a prototype picture of a 15 inch gauge V-tipper.

We were discussing it over here (Germany) some years ago. http://www.die-feldbahnsinnigen.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=425&hilit=Kipploren+Gn15+Kipploren

Most builders using HO or O scale material, ignore the fact, that axleboxes are too small for Gn15 (1:24 scale).

Bilco has shown a convincing solution in here some years ago: http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=4065


Have Fun

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby chris stockdale » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:49 am

Decauville come close with their 40cm skips:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10253&p=119077&hilit=decauville#p119077

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:00 am

Not sure, but some links still don't work for me. I am wondering if it goes back to the way the forum had two faces. I will have to see if it continues this way when I eventually get a new computer.
Anyway, I remember Tom doing a skip wagon, as one of his first items for Gn15. Might not suit everyone, but one thing about Gn15, is that there are no clearly defined rivet counting rules. Most of us make it up.
On the size of wagons, the German railway standard gauge version, which is the basis , I assume, for the Fleischmann HO version and the Minitrix N gauge version, is huge , which is why some of use use them for narrow gauge in bigger scales. We can always modify the chassis if we really want to do so. Personally I always prefer something that works than something that just looks pretty. I tend to use those pretty models as background static ones.
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http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby AlastairH » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:02 pm

Thanks for all the replies.

All the links here have worked for me on an iPad.

In my searching I came across this which requires registering, and a further link to this

So I've got to the point of buying the axles and bearings in anticipation of a production run of tippers, when I've printed the cards.

And here's another tipper, and much else.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:35 pm

I tend not to join forums which require you to join before you can read anything on them. Then if you like what you see, you can join.
We are best source of info, and welcome anyone.
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http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby AlastairH » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:46 pm

You can read most of their forum, but in common with many, you don't get access to the pictures without registering.

gn15.info might be the "best" but it doesn't have the topic content referred to by the link.

One of several videos from the forum topic https://youtu.be/EkLEqPSBlQI

Where can I get a Faulhaber 2020B motor? It looks like a solution to getting a low speed loco. 2020Ds are relatively easy to find, but they have a 215:1 box instead of the 15:1 of the 2020B.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby nonsuch » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:04 am

Juergen

In the Middleton Press book 'Kent Narrow Gauge', illustration 105 shows two 15" gauge V tippers on the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby chris krupa » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:54 pm

When I was building Mattews Corner, I used a Smallbrook 7mm scale tipper wagon. It is already 16.5mm gauge, inside framed and quite easy to assemble. Looking at suppliers' catalogues for the prototypes, there was quite a variety of styles and the Smallbrook one is as good as any.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:07 pm

Alastair, you are wrong about the ability to read the NG forum, it just comes up with a log-on screen for me. I have seen the problem on some forums of pictures only being displayed if you log on.It tends to only be some pictures. Less often now, but have had that issue in the past. Luckily on this forum and others I look at, apart from the odd problems I am having here, I can see all text and all pictures without having to log on.
My philosophy in the hobby, is to try and publicise it as much as possible, and not put hurdles in the way. I take an active part in the hobby, exhibit layouts, write articles for well known magazines about my slightly unusual models, and help anyone who needs help and advice.
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http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby KEG » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:47 am

Personally I always prefer something that works than something that just looks pretty. I tend to use those pretty models as background static ones.


Sorry, out of scale models never can look very good on a model railroad with a defined scale. You don´t have to count rivets, if you build models. Simply place them, where they belong or make sense.

Just found pictures of our last exibition of the KREATIVMEILE (Creative Mile), a larger Gn15 modular layout. We have a train with small V-skips running there.

Image


Image

Loco and wagons made in resin by Ralph B. (Rockley Bottom), painted and wheathered by myself, equipped with Deltang RC equipment by JL Toeffelholm. The opening of the buckets is 40 by 40 mm. The frame reminds to Brit. Hudson Skips.

Here and there there actually are or were V-skips on 15 Inch / 381mm gauge. At the Parkeisenbahn Dresden they regauged a standard German 600 mm skip. But they only dare, to push it by hand.
In the souvenir book of the Welsh Fairbourne railway, which used to be in 15 inch gauge, they have a picture of a very smal V-skip as well.

As Chris S. mentioned. The Decauville 400mm types are the closest to 15 inch. There is one preserved at the Valkenburg Feldbahn Museum in the Neatherlands. And you can buy suitable scale models of it at Shapeways.

Have Fun

Juergen

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:07 am

My point is not that we should accept poorer standards, but that it is a compromise. Military modellers build to fantastic standards, but their models don't have to move, whereas railway modeling is as much, if not more about movement. Unfortunately static photos don't capture that.
When it comes to size of tipper wagons, take care.
Size will be partly dependent on what load is being transported. I think I remember a vineyard with huge hopper/tipper wagons.
Secondly most Decauville 40cm gauge stock was intended for human power not loco power, although some would have been adapted. Thus size of tipper would have had to be within capacity to be moved by a person, possibly horse.

Narrow gauge modellers tend to mix and match. Luckily real railways quite often did that, so we get away with it. Even mixing up scales, which is common in OO9 and HOe, and G scale , well most people still don't really understand that. It now seems to refer to anything from 1/20.4 to 1/29. I think it was originally set at 1/22.5 which fits one of the Greenley scales/gauges, but there is still muddle as to whether it is equivalent of gauge 2 or gauge 3 (IIm or IIIm,to use terminology used by some). Gn15 is a nice catchy term, but we should use it with care, when we start discussing scale. That is why I accept compromise.
One thing though, the photos I posted are from a few years ago, I would probably build new tippers using 3D printing now. Tipper wagons should, in my opinion be able to tip. It adds a lot of interest at exhibitions, as does loading wagons using anything from simple Hornby conveyor belt, to sophisticated cranes. At the moment my Gn15 is in store, but I may look at upgrading the wagons if I get it out again.

Finally, I often hear the comment 'If it looks right, then it is right' . Trouble with that is that everyone will disagree. I accept that, it is personal opinion , not scientific fact. I also have noticed that some will try to achieve something, fail, then give up. At the end of the day, it is all about having fun.
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http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby chris stockdale » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:34 am

At the risk of upsetting the apple cart is it essential that V tippers are used?

Both Carl Arendt

http://www.carendt.com/articles/the-squ ... e-railway/

and Thomas Schmid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUq1TqNg-3M

found alternative solutions.

Cheers,

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby KEG » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:20 am

but there is still muddle as to whether it is equivalent of gauge 2 or gauge 3 (IIm or IIIm,to use terminology used by some)


In Germany and large part of Continental Europe the number 2, sometimes written in Roman II
stands for model railroads in a scale of 1 : 22,5. If followed by a letter, like m, g or f it stands for the the prototype gauge, e.G. IIm (2m) for Metergauge, g for 750/760 mm and f for 600mm / 2 feet. They even tried to establish IIp for 381mm / 15 feet. The p stands for Park-Eisenbahn. they had a few of those and still have in some parts of Germany.

"G" does not stand for a scale. It simply says, it will run on 45mm modeltrack. "G" was invented by the trade, to fool unexperienced customers. A lot of "G-scale" stuff combines various scales in a single model resulting in offerings completly out of shape.

The Gn15 inventors, Steve Warrington and Steve Bennett 15 years ago, originally claimed, that Gn15 was in 1 : 22,5. For the majority of today modellers, it seems to be in 1 : 24.

Returning to the V-skips. Of course the Decauville 400mm gauge types were intended to be pushed
by hand. Never heard of a loco with 400mm gauge. Still no reason why such a thing should not excist.

Image
Decauville, 400mm at Valkenbourg Meseum, NL

The seize of rolling stock largely should relate to the track gauge. as a rule of thumb, narrow gauge modellers often use 3,25 multiplied the gauge for the width of a wagon. So how much weight can you transport in such small buckets keeping the centre of gravity in mind ? I know, peat is probably lighter than clay, sand or gravel...







Have Fun

Juergen

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby tebee » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:47 pm

I think the confusion with 2 or 3 gauge comes from the fact that we English use no 2 gauge as 2 inch gauge, 7/16th inch to the foot scale and number 3 gauge as 2.5 inch gauge with 17/32 or 1/2 inch scale ( live steam tend to use the latter )

Another 40cm gauge tipper

Image

more photos here with sizes https://picasaweb.google.com/1125942068 ... directlink

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby Thorness » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:14 pm

Sir Arthur was not in favour of skip wagons as the payload to tare weight was lower than a normal box wagon.The Eaton Railway had six skip wagons with a capacity of about 600 kg of coal and a tare of about 570kg. The normal box wagon had a capacity of about 800kg with a tare weight of about 370 kg. The skips also cost more than a normal box wagon. Only two of the skips were retained by the Eaton Railway. (This info is from the Mark Smithers book).

Eaton wagons were 36 inches wide, the carriages were 42 inches wide.

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby tebee » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:33 pm

Are there any photos or drawings of the Eton railway skip wagons ?
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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:21 pm

Had a quick look through the book, but did not see any of the tipper wagons on the ER. There is one photo on R&E, when derelict, but not certain if it is one of the ER tippers. It is a tall tipper wagon, quite narrow. I might have missed something though.
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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby Thorness » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:15 pm

There do not seem to be any clear photos of the skips but there is a photo of a skip in a train on p73 of the Smithers book. Also on p95 in a train with Little Giant at the front.
Smithers has the Eaton tipper wagons as "Four withdrawn 1898, returned to Duffield Bank and sold to Hill Bros. (?) in 1916. The remaining two scrapped by 1947."
Smithers also mentions two Bucket Tip Wagons at Duffield Bank disposed "to R&ER in 1916(?) and Fairbourne prior to 1922. One example now preserved in NGRM at Tywyn."

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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby rue_d_etropal » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:34 pm

is that same one as on page 109, which is more U than V .
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Re: V-tipper wagons

Postby Thorness » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:15 pm

Difficult to say for certain as it is in the middle of a train but it looks to me to be more of a V than the one in the scrap pile at Murthwaite. However I guess a U shape would have a higher capacity and a lower centre of gravity both of which Sir Arthur expressed concerns about.

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