The GnATTERbox

Hi Glen,
some suggestions from one who has built an operating winder
http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page57a/index.html

OK lets work on correct positioning first.....
1 - Eyeball control - This has several limitations as I found out with Jaxcilliest - the most difficult problem is seeing when you have actually arrived at the top position because the cage, hoist structure, runners etc can form pretty effective view blocks.
2 - Physical barriers to cage travel - this works well for the lower level by simply placing a floor under the cage. This means when you throw slack rope on the winder you have arrived down below. This is what I used on the lower level on Jaxcilliest. For this to work on the upper level you need a motor that can be stalled out when the top of the cage fetches up against something solid placed across the shaft and the rope goes tight. It doesn't matter whether the rope streches or not, you will still finish at the same position each time. They definitely don't use this method in the real world.
3 - Limit switches on the surrounds - Here limit switches at each end of travel chop the power to the motor winder when the cage reaches them. This takes some setting up, but once it is set up the cage will stop at the same position each time. A suggestion is to mount the limit switches in an adjustable mounting (screw or on a taper) that can be adjusted until you get the right spot at each end of travel, then lock or glue the limit switches in position. Unless you use a seperate "striker" for the limit switches, the lower limit switch will be below the floor on your lower level. The striker can be as simple as a piece of plastic glued to part of the cage so that is protrudes out from the normal envelope of the cage.
4 - Limit switches on the cable - I'm not sure if you can use this one, but I have seen it work very effectively for the logging winch on Professor Klyzlr's former "9 Mile" layout. In this variation, a bead or a knot on the rope is used to engage 'fingers" on the limit switches. The fingers are wide enough to allow the normal rope to pass unhindered but are engaged when when the knot or bead reaches fingers and triggers the limit switch. This again chops the power to the motor on the winder.

For limit switches to work repeatedly and precisely, you need the speed of the cage to be a constant, so that the amount of overun is constant. Look at using a constant voltage to the motor on the winder. This will help eliminate another variable when you are setting up your limit switches.

On Jaxcilliest I used brass square section on the cage running in brass channels attached to the hoist structure. This gives low friction running surfaces, especially once the channel has been dusted with some powdered graphite.

I hope that this helps. Please let me know if you need detailed photos of any parts of Jaxcilliest.

Dear Crew,

More on Nine Mile's "working winch"

1 - It was distilled down that there were 2 basic/practical ways to run such a "back n forth cableway".

Either

- a Loop of cable,
(requiring a join somewhere),
and a single "twice around friction drive"
(This system also required a way to keep a nice tension on the "loop",
AND did not allow the modelling of correct "HighLead" rigging carriage )

OR

- a single-ended "weighted system", where a haulage drum wound in the cable at one end of the cable, against a known "weight" mounted at the other end.

This kept automatic tension on the "cable run",
but made the motor torque a critical factor,
AND meant that Bulletproof end-limit switching was a MUST.

2 - For the "with the weight" move,
I used the model logging rigging carriage as the "Knot in the cable".

3 - Both "switches" were a pair of DSE microswitches, with a plate of 0.040" styrene glued to their "trigger levers".

http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.store ... View/P7802

The styrene plate had a 1/16th hole drilled in it, which the cable was threaded thru. There was no "slot" as such, meaning that the cable could move smoothly thru the "switch plate", but ANYthing larger than the cable proper would activate the switch.

4- some added resistance in the cable guides (due to errant application of adhesive ), meant that to get the rigging to "pull" against the switch reliably, the weight had to be significantly more than originally intended.

(Lesson: Make sure your cable guides, if the cable run is not "straight", are as frctionless as possible! ).

THis had the knock-on effect that the "haul motor" was actually drawing over 1.5amps of current when hauling this "excess weight",
PLUS overcoming the cable-guide friction

5 - On the "Haul by motor" direction, it was the weight itself that triggered the appropriate limit switch. Again, the "hole thru a styrene plate" trick worked a treat,

although in this direction, the motor would just keep hauling,
pulling more and more tension on the entre system,
until the weight triggered the limit switch.

It was primarily for this reason that I added a "slap to Emergency Stop" button on the bottom edge of the layout module. (See something "not right", slap the button, all winch drum motion stops!).

6 - I noted a definite change in the length and "tensile strength" of the scale marine rope I used for the winch, over a number of shows. Indeed, taking this into account, I built in the ability to tear the entire system apart reasonably painlessly, should a cable "snap", and need re-rigging...
(Murphy's Law has not yet been repealed, esp under Train Show conditions...)

Hope this Helps...

Who is going to build the other end of the mine shaft in the UK

DCRfan wrote:Who is going to build the other end of the mine shaft in the UK

Geography 101...... try Spain And I wouldn't more that layout any further south than Christchurch, otherwise you'd be trying to pump the Bay of Biscay out of the shaft

Physics 101 - how do you get the cage to fall "up" once you go past the centre of the core

Geology 101 - I hope the air conditioner in the cage is working well - It could get warm down there

Gavin Sowry wrote:

DCRfan wrote:Who is going to build the other end of the mine shaft in the UK

Geography 101...... try Spain And I wouldn't more that layout any further south than Christchurch, otherwise you'd be trying to pump the Bay of Biscay out of the shaft

The engineers plumb line was a little out of plumb as it was brought from the lowest bidder

Oztrainz wrote::twisted: Physics 101 - how do you get the cage to fall "up" once you go past the centre of the core

Geology 101 - I hope the air conditioner in the cage is working well - It could get warm down there

Physics 102 - centrifugal force . By the way I gave up physics in Form 4

DCRfan wrote:

Gavin Sowry wrote:

DCRfan wrote:Who is going to build the other end of the mine shaft in the UK

Geography 101...... try Spain And I wouldn't more that layout any further south than Christchurch, otherwise you'd be trying to pump the Bay of Biscay out of the shaft

The engineers plumb line was a little out of plumb as it was brought from the lowest bidder

Gavin Sowry wrote: Geography 101...... try Spain

My in-laws moved to Spain. And then we moved to NZ. Could this be coincidence??

Will Vale wrote:

Gavin Sowry wrote: Geography 101...... try Spain

My in-laws moved to Spain. And then we moved to NZ. Could this be coincidence??

Were your last words to them 'I'll go to the end of the earth to get away from you'

Oztrainz wrote:Hi Glen,
some suggestions from one who has built an operating winder
http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page57a/index.html

Hi John and Prof,

Thanks for your thoughts.
I have been planning to use a variety of those methods based on success I have had on previous animations.
I don't know what the final configuration will be. Probably a mixture.
I think electrical relays which shut off power prior to final position. And then manual switch operation for the final few millimeters until the cage hits a physical stop.
And a spring on the end of the cable for a bit of safety. (this has worked well on the incline).
This has given me some more ideas to think about.
Glen.

Glen A wrote:The original plan was to have the mine shaft at this end of the module, going down to a lower level (underground mine scene) - see photo below.
The base board for the lower level was built a year ago, but I have yet to decide to if I am going to use it, or move the shaft on to its own dedicated module. I am worried that if I put the shaft here, by the time I get the high frame with the pulley on the top the module is going to be very high and long, making transport difficult.

Hi Glen
you answer in the previous post gives the answer to your height problem.

If you have a barrier at the top for the cage to stop against plus the spring on the cable at the top of the cage, then your poppet head wheel can almost be immediately above where the spring will stretch to. This mean that you can have your winder house immediately adjacent to the shaft and take your rope out through the winder house roof rather than the end wall as is more usual.

The main reason for the poppet headgear to be a fair way up in the air was to prevent the cage being wound through the headgear if the winder operator or the equipment malfunctioned when hauling to the surface.

Remember - in the real world, to haul bulk tonnes from deep levels your rope speeds would be far higher than we are modelling and the brakes on the real winch take time to apply and then have to absorb a lot of energy to stop the cage before the cage hits the headgear.

If you wire your manual switches in parallel across your limit switches, this will give you the manual overide for fine adjustment. Perhaps also look at using a reduced voltage across these manual switches as well. Use momentary contact switches, that way the manual overide is NORMALLY OFF until you want it on. It is easy to forget these overide switches and either wind something into the upper stops or unwind all your cable when your cage is at the bottom. (Been There - Done That)

Also have a look at what spool diameter you are going to use at the winder - a smaller spool diameter gives you a slower rope speed for a given motor speed. This also means that you can move the rope a smaller amount when "jogging" the motor with your manual overide switches.

Well, after a lot more thought and detailed planning, I was getting no-where fast.
Sometimes you can spend tooo much time on planning, and when you try to build it, it doesn't work out how you planned anyway.
So it is time to just get on with it, and deal with any problems as they come up.

I made a mechanical stop to go under the cage. So it will stop at a known position when it reaches the top level.
I soldered some pieces of brass rod to brass plate and screwed to the bottom.
Here is the underside view:


And here it the top view (you can see them sticking out in the bottom corners)


Then I made a mine shaft:


The prongs at the bottom of the cage don't fit through the hole at the top. Therefore the cage stops at a known location meaning I can build the top track to line up with it.

There needs to be some electrical detection too. At this stage I haven’t got a clue how or where I am going to put that, but I can start thinking about it now.

I have also done some more work on the rivers, now it is summer and the weather is hot enough to dry the resin. More posts of that later.

Glen,

You haven't quite got the right end of the stick when it comes to lowering rollingstock down the shaft



This is how it was done

Wow... and I was please with myself for making a sector plate work... Please keep posting progress...

Glen A wrote:There needs to be some electrical detection too. At this stage I haven’t got a clue how or where I am going to put that, but I can start thinking about it now.

Hi Paul,
Try this for a Plan A
Put an isolating cut in one rail on each approach road to the cage on each level at least a loco length clear of the cage. Wire in a diode across the join on each of these sections so that the diode will stop a loco heading for the shaft. When the limit switches are installed use the Nomally Open pathway through the limit switch to bridge out the diode and provide a current path. The Normally Open path only occurs when the cage has arrived and tripped the limit switch for that level. This means that the loco can only get to the cage when it is at same level as the loco.

The Normally Closed path on each limit switch is active when the cage is not in the correct position for that level (ie is at the other end or in transit between the levels). This could be used to control a solenoid driving a barrier across the tracks or a pin (extra high HO uncoupler ramp or similar?) to be raised between the tracks at the level where the cage isn't. The isolating cut method above will only stop locos taking a header down the shaft. This barrier method will also trap any runaway wagons headed for the shaft before the wagons get to the shaft when the cage isn't there.

In the real world, winding cannot occur until the cage and shaft doors are shut (just like lifts) and the limit switches on each door have made contact. The cage and shaft doors at each level make a physical barrier against something moving into the shaft when it shouldn't.

To work the limit switches glue a robust projection (similar to the brass on the cage floor) to the roof of the cage and notch the upper level floor to allow it to pass through. This means that the lower level limit switch can be mounted on a post clear of the floor, making it able to be adjusted easily. The upper limit switch is mounted to something solid just above the cage when it is at the top level.

At present I cannot see anything that prevents the cage from twisting slightly in the shaft while it is being raised or lowered. I can see positive stops at each end of travel but nothing to guide the cage to these end positions. Can I suggest something similar to what I used on Jaxcilliest to achieve all this? On Jaxcilliest I used K&S #153 3/16" brass square to form the cage verticals running in K&S#1185 1/4" brass channel. The sqaure comes in a 12" length and the channel in 3' length.

I used two lengths of channel on diagonally opposite corners to ensure that the cage travelled without twisting. This also ensured that the cage was in the same position every time it reached the top or bottom.



In this photo of the cage on Jaxcilliest, the top end of the square section can be seen just above the blob of solder on the cage roof, positively located by the channel. With your plastic cage, if you mounted a piece of square diagonally opposite each other somwhere on each side, and used the brass channel as a cage guide, you could also use the channels to pass power to the square sections on each side of the cage and thus have the ability to have hard wired live tracks in the cage. By adding a DPDT centre off switch and some extra wires you could feed the cage tracks from either the top or bottom level, as required. Just make sure that you are in the "centre off" position when you have a loco in the cage being transfered between levels

I have another very blurry photo of the cage guide here:


I hope that this helps. There is nothing overly difficult here, If I can get Jaxcilliest to work, then I'm sure that you will get this one sorted as well. It is probably simpler to sort than some of the other animations that you have got running successfully already on "The Stamping Ground"

excellent

I was a good boy last year, and so Father Christmas brought me some nice presents at Christmas time;

On Xmas day I got a PCC Streamliner (on recomendation from Oztrainz/John Garaty that the motor unit was good) and another fleet of 3 V dump wagons to make a second train (not pictured here).

Then upon arriving home after Christmas I found he had also left a present in our mailbox, 2 underground Ernies!

He is a very nice man, that Father Christmas!



At this stage the Ernies are ear marked for shunting the underground mine (yet to be built). I can see why they are more suited to Gn15 than HO, when you compare them to the HO street car in front.

But first I need to finish the incline from the yellow shed up to the bins behind the battery. I decided to rebuild it after my last 'helper' broke it at the last show. It is still apart at the moment but another days work should see the improvements nearly completed.

But first I need to finish the incline from the yellow shed up to the bins behind the battery. I decided to rebuild it after my last 'helper' broke it at the last show.

Here is the incline as it started out:


Firstly, the wagon sometimes didn't want to go down the incline.
So I rebuilt the wagon chassis out of a solid block of lead. No problem going down now!
I also added a magnet in the bottom (taken out of an old computer CD drive) for use with a reed switch, (see below).


The end of the wagon got a tipping flap added, so the stones don't fall out the end when loading:


The pulley at the top of the incline has had the axle replaced so it turns smoother (this was part of the problem with the empty wagon not always going down hill). A glass reed switch has been added under the track to detect when the wagon arrives at the top and shut off power to prevent damage. see between the two sleeper tot he left of the pulley. (another reed switch has also been added at the bottom of the incline).


And a new loading hopper has been built for the bottom.


The stones are loaded from behind the layout and come down the pipe at the right hand side.


By tomorrow all the glue will be dry (especially in this heat, 33deg today!), and I just need to attach the rope (string) and try it out.

Baabra and I had the pleasure of seeing Stamping Ground in person this week. It was great to look over, under and behind the backscene of the layout. I can assure everyone it is even better in the flesh than in pictures.

The above & under ground module is going to be very interesting.

DCRfan wrote:The above & under ground module is going to be very interesting.

Thanks Paul. Glad you made it back home safely.

I made a start on the poppet head frame at the top of the shaft today.
I have been looking at photos of old wooden frames and found that almost every one was slightly different, with the cross bracing between levels being the only thing in common.
So I have drawn up a plan and started cutting wood.

The question I have (which I am sure some here will know the answer too) is how were the horizontal beams held between the uprights? (see photo below).
Were they bolted (if so where does the bolt head go?), or did they have a tooth that fits into a socket in the post or something?



Thanks.

After a couple of days cutting wood and painting/weathering the poppet head is making good progress. It looks much different in 3D to what it did on my plan, hence the pulley wheel I had for the top now looks abysmally small.
So I will have to visit the model shop tomorrow to look for a bigger one, and some more bracing timber as I was about 1cm too short for cutting the last piece.

Glen A wrote:Hence the pulley wheel I had for the top now looks abysmally small.
So I will have to visit the model shop tomorrow to look for a bigger one

Hi Glen, Just a quick thought...Check out the front wheels on some of the cheaper diecast 1/18 motor bikes. They have spokes and they may be a larger diameter than what you have already. Loose the tyre and skim the width down and you may have an acceptable alternative.

That looks great, like it`s been there for years. How big does the wheel need to be?

Oztrainz wrote:Hi Glen, Just a quick thought...Check out the front wheels on some of the cheaper diecast 1/18 motor bikes. They have spokes and they may be a larger diameter than what you have already. Loose the tyre and skim the width down and you may have an acceptable alternative.

Thanks for the tip. The size I need is about 40-45mm The old one was 30mm and is too small. 60mm is too big and doesn't even fit.