The Stamping Ground Gold Mine

For discussion of the issues faced when building a model or layout - how to replicate wood, what glues to use, exactly how much weathering can a Gnat take, a good source of detailing accessories - you get the picture, I'm sure.

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Gerry Bullock
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Postby Gerry Bullock » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:47 am

Glen A wrote:Thanks for the tip. The size I need is about 40-45mm The old one was 30mm and is too small. 60mm is too big and doesn't even fit.


The 1/24 scale Triumph Twin I have has 42mm diam wheels though I doubt you'd cannibalise that one. :wink:
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
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Glen A
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Postby Glen A » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:15 pm

The wheel is now sorted (I hope).

I started out with a Tamiya pulley set.
In the large set, you get two sets of 50mm, 25mm and 10mm(??) wheels (seen at right).
I enlarged the holes in the large wheel to turn them into spokes. (seen at left).
Image
I wasn't that happy with the result, and was considering if I should file them down further, and add more spokes made from styrene.

So I took John's advise of looking for toy motor bikes. I found this one at The Warehouse (slogan: where everyone gets a bargain) for less than $5.
Image

After removing the tyre off the wheel, I discovered that I was very lucky, and the motorbike wheel was close to inner section of the Tamiya pulley. So after an hour and a half filing plastic off on the two wheels, I was able to push the motorbike spokes into the middle of the channel section on the Tamiya pulley:
Image
I don't think the spoke pattern is quite right (I think the real ones all radiate out from the centre hub), but it conveys the idea OK.


Hopefully I have salvaged the motorbike forks and axle (glue still drying) for the bearings at the top of the poppet.

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Postby DCRfan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:34 am

:shock: :shock: A cromed poppett head pulley wheel - classy :P Great bodging
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Postby Glen A » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:50 am

DCRfan wrote::shock: :shock: A chromed poppett head pulley wheel - classy :P Great bodging



Well they are mining gold, so they do have some money. In fact you are lucky as they could have had it gold plated :lol: :lol:

Image

Just several bolt heads to add now (plus a bit of paint over that chrome wheel :wink: )

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Postby DCRfan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:05 am

Do you have the book New Zealand's Industrial Past? Check out page 9 - your a copy cat and a good one to :lol:

In case you don't have it

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Postby Oztrainz » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:00 am

Great work Glen,
Give youself a gold star and a pat on the back :D
I'm glad the motor bike idea worked. I'll have to keep my eyes open over here for similar cheap wheels once I get my forkie layout sorted.
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Postby Glen A » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:20 pm

DCRfan wrote:Do you have the book New Zealand's Industrial Past?

No I don't have that book. Which is a pity, because that one looks easier to build than the one it did.
I just went to the library and looked at photos in books on old gold (and mainly coal) mines, and designed a generic one based on similarities.
The ones I saw all had the cross bracing within the 4 main upright posts. But that the one in that photo has them bolted on the outside, which would have been much easier. :(

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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:34 pm

Dear Glen,

You gotta remember, these oldtime miners and loggers were crazy, but not stupid. :wink:

They never made life any harder for themselves than was generally neccessary, and when they did, it was usually for a very practical operational reason.... :wink:

IMHO, the fact that you scoped out a range of "prototype" headrigs,
distilled it down in your mind to "the basics",
and then built it,
(and <still> gained applause for your efforts from those who have first-hand experience in the area you modelling),

speaks volumes... :D

Looking forward to seeing more...
Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
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Postby Glen A » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:54 am

Today I made a start on the winding engine.
I had two options;
    The easy one; take a Tamiya model gear box and make a drum to fit on the axle to hold the string
    or
    The harder one; try and bodge together a pile of gears so you can see them all going round as the drum winds the string up

So or course I took the hard option :twisted:

I found this in my assorted box of gears and motors. I think it came out of a big old video tape editing machine I helped someone strip for parts several years ago.
Image

I spent some time cutting down the thick metal base, but eventually I got it down to the 'good' parts:
Image

I found this motor in another box (I think it is out of an old printer, but not too sure). It says 24v on the side, but with 12v power on it, it runs at a nice speed.
Image


And so here it a rough idea of how I hope it will work, (with video belt drive between the two).
Image

I have currently stripped it all apart for painting before I mount it together.

Can anyone tell me what colour the gears should be?
I assume the old photos we see of rusting old gears at ruins a just because they have been abandoned for years. And they would have been a different colour black(??) or something when in service?

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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:12 am

Dear Glen,

The "spokes" or bodies of the gears can be "weathered",

they were rarely "painted", because a solid coating of primer +paint tended to hide the early telltale signs of hairline fractures thru the gear castings, and other "sneak attack" mechanical failures.

The gear teeth area would be "shiny metal" with hints of heavy grease towards the edges of the teeth.

The hubs/shafts/bearings would be caked up with heavy grease, shiny with the fresh daily applications required to keep the winding engine/gearbox moving...

In model terms,
- side of gears = black or grey primer + "weathering" + "Oil Wash"

(NB "Oil Wash" = Black India Ink + Isopropyl alcohol)

- gear teeth = Isopropyl + graphite "dry lock lube" dust
(Makes a slurry paste which will <actually> lube the gears,
but also visually provides a dull silvery shine or worn metal,
and is <totally safe> for all plastics!!!!)

- Hub Grease = "OilWash" + Graphite powder/dust
(Same as "Gear Teeth", only with "Oil Wash" to get a darker overall effect)

Just my initial $0.05c +GST worth of thoughts...
Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

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Postby Glen A » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:51 am

I have started building the piston for the winding engine, to connect to the gear set.
Here is a picture I found in my pile of 'ideas' photocopies, although I am not specifically copying this one.

Image

I soldered some brass together to get the slide bars working, and the piston cylinder was made out of a shortened cotton reel.


Image

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Postby Glen A » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:06 pm

In spite of the best efforts by my employer to work me to death, I have survived, and started modeling again.

The cotton reel has been turned into a piston:

Image

And then got painted:

Image

And finally added to the winding engine assembly:

Image

But final testing last night revealed that it doesn't wind at the speed expected. So now I am considering my options; bigger drum, and maybe cutting out a set of gears.

I need to progress this, because I have got a beam engine I have started building too. :wink:

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Postby Gerry Bullock » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:16 pm

Looks great Glen that should confuse the rivet counters. :wink:
That's one impressive gear train you have even if you lose one set of gears.
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.

http://gn15gnutt.blogspot.com/

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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:50 pm

Dear Glen,

So, does it wind

- too slow (drum too small a dia, resulting in low cable-speed)

- or too slow (excessive gear reduction,
resulting to high torque but LOW cable-speed)?

(Yes, that was an edit... :roll:
I'm still asleep, but that's another Model RR story...)

Remember, the lift of a empty cage is relatively easy, but cage + loaded car (+ possibly a loco) worth of weight would require a slow cable-speed anyway.

Furthur, slow cable speed = less instantaneous stress on the cable joints and rigging, due to eliminating of "take the strain" style "snatching".

In animating logging winches, I often find that the prototype cable-speed is often far below what we think it should look like in model form...
(and model animation mechs can exert more strain on components than we expect a "dummied-up" mech to have to handle... :) ).

Oh, BTW, as a super-detail, you may wish to tie a scale white rag onto the cable, positioned such that it gets to the drum <just> as the model "cage" is about to "surface". Such simple indicators were often used by the winch/lift operator to "know" when to prep for stopping the haul movement, even though they couldn't <actually see> where the cage was... :wink:
Last edited by Prof Klyzlr on Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:54 pm

Hi Glen,
your way forward depends on how much you can increase your drum diameter. The increase in winding speed is directly proportional to the % change in drum diameter. If you can double your drum diameter you will double your winding speed. If you can't increase your drum diameter to get your required winding speed, then you are going to have to look at your gearing ratios. Another option is to look at whether you can get more speed out of your electric motor driving this rig.

Also be aware the larger your drum diameter and the faster it is travelling, the harder it is to stop the drum when the power to the motor comes off. This may affect where you put your limit switches to stop you over-running and either throwing too much slack at mine bottom or stretching your "rope" when you fetch up solid at the top level. On full size winders there are "significant" brake calipers on large brakedrums attached to the winding drum to prevent this.

I'm not sure if this helps or hinders.....
John Garaty
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Postby foswaldy13 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:56 pm

This project is really looking good.
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Postby Glen A » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:00 pm

Progress report:
I looked at how to change the gearing system to get it to do what I wanted. It wasn't going to be easy.

And after standing back and taking a good honest look at the gears, I decided that I didn't like the look of them any more. They were far too chunky. So have decided not to use them and start again.

I have managed to save the piston, and attach it to some much better looking gears out of an old printer.

In the mean time I have put a few bolt heads and tie rods into the head frame. Sorry for the photo colours (not the best lighting conditions)

Image

edit:> have just replaced the photo with a better one
Last edited by Glen A on Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Dallas_M » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:01 pm

Hi Glen --

Sorry to hear about the frustration with the gear arrangement ... but based on all the fabulous work done so far, I'm guessing that's just another step toward "getting it right". Speaking of which, the head frame looks great! :!:
Cheers,
Dallas

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Postby Glen A » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:40 am

While I was waiting for a bush to be made for the new winding drum, I started on the beam engine.

It is a Airfix kit 1:32 scale, but still looks Ok for 1:24.

Image

It is designed to be moved by hand. I left off the hand crank handle, and found an old tape cassette player to use to power it. I stripped some parts off the cassette player and added a friction wheel (blue) on a hinged arm (brass one at left).

Image

The whole arrangement is hinged on the left, and a tension spring on the right (out of a writing pen) is used to get the right friction to drive the main fly wheel on the model.

Image

Here is the whole arrangement:

Image

And a 15 second movie of it running:

Image

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Gerry Bullock
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Postby Gerry Bullock » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:50 am

That sure is impressive Glen, gives me an idea for a 7mm Welsh layout my MRC is building. 8)
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.

http://gn15gnutt.blogspot.com/

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Postby Simon Moore » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:52 am

Very nice slow running and a completely hidden power unit, great stuff, looks the biz :D

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Postby Steve Bennett » Sun Apr 05, 2009 12:58 pm

Really like this Glen, could just see one of those beam engines being the centrepiece for a layout. Must resist, but you make it look so tempting :) . I built one when I was a kid, but the way you have it operating gives it a whole new dimension, really looks good.
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Postby scott b » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:45 pm

Wow, really great work, as usual. I can`t wait to see it on your layout. The animation on your layout is fantastic.
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Postby Glen A » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:10 pm

Thanks for the nice comments. It took 4 attempts to the friction drive wheel mounted so it would work smoothly. But that is half the fun; solving the problem of how to make it work.

Now I just need to leave it running for a good few hours as a proper test before it gets mounted onto a new module.

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Postby Glen A » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:06 am

Progress at last. :P
Here is the mk4 version of the new winding drum.
I won't bore you with the 3 mods (and time it took) to get it to this stage. :cry:

The gears are from an old computer printer, and have a much finer pitch than the corse ones I was using in the first attempt. The drum is a cotton reel with large plastic 'washers' added on each side, to make sure the string stays on the drum. There are more details, such as the brake to add.

Image

It is has been tested, and I am much happier with this one.
A movie will come some-time later, the paint is still drying today :wink:


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