Turnouts

For discussion of the issues faced when building a model or layout - how to replicate wood, what glues to use, exactly how much weathering can a Gnat take, a good source of detailing accessories - you get the picture, I'm sure.

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Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:01 am

The type of relay you require is a Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) changeover.

Similar to http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?TabID=1&ModuleNo=2525&doy=18m11
Barry Weston

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Postby docnjoj » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:54 pm

Thanks John! I think I get it! Its like wiring the old double DPDT switch crossover to obtain reverse! Also, my one dimensional (dimentia?) mind only was looking at the one loop I completed on my bench. Obviously, railroads run better with a loop at the other end! I'll try the auto store first, since that Fleishman relay has to swim thru all that water to get here!
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Postby docnjoj » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:59 pm

Thanks Barry! It seems like I have a chance to get one here in good ol' boy land! Even southerners gnow a little about that there electricity (maybe)
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Postby docnjoj » Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:39 pm

I found an interesting gadget in the wayback room where old G-scale stuff is stored! Its an Aristocraft automatic reverser and timer. I think I will at least try it with the two loops (Latrec);-} md see if it works. I wont allow precision, but its here in the house, and maybe I can set the timer accurately enough to have the train stop for a few seconds in "the dead zone" before it reverses or continues on. It could be the location of two shanty stations. This could be my first layout since childhood! Kewl!
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Postby docnjoj » Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:38 pm

Sorry for posting to my own post, but the answer to the little black box is "yes" but with reservations. I tested the timer and it does work, and the train runs and stops in the "dead zone", then runs. I then opened the box (made in America, no less) for Aristocraft, and discovered a little relay and a timer circuit attached to a variable resistor. So, in principle, it will make the train run continuously in the reverse loops, but unless I get the timer set very accurately, the train could reverse in the middle of a run! Still continuous, but not in the same direction. Oh well, now I need to find some reed switches, RadioShack doesnt carry them, but they are used for burgler alarm systems, so maybe Home Depot has some! Stay tuned, this hobby is FUN!!!!!
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Postby Oztrainz » Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:24 pm

Hi David,
You don't need to go to reed switches just yet. If you set the timer so that the duration is longer than the time taken to get to the stop section(say by plus 5 to 10 seconds), the train will get to the stop section, stop and wait for the timer to time out, then head off in the correct direction out of the reversing loop once the polarity changes after the timer times out. Keep you speed down to just enough to provide reliable starting to minimse the "crash stop" when arriving at the stop section and the "blast-off" effect when the power comes back on each cycle.

Not quite continuous running, but it is hands off operation, and you already have the gear to make it work
John Garaty
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Postby docnjoj » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:44 pm

Thanks John and Barry! It works with about a 15 sec delay! I can live with that, but I dont gnow about my passengers! They really gotta run to catch the train! Now comes the real work of trying to make my first layout!
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Postby docnjoj » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:55 pm

And heres the result! My first layout! The loops will overlap, so it should fit on a 2x4 chunk of styrofoam. Home depot tomorrow, the world next week! Still got a bit o' work to do!
Oops, nothing like not planning! I may have to change the locations of one of the bridge rectifiers like the author suggested, sos I can have a siding or 2. Oh well!
Image
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Postby SOUTHPASS » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:57 am

Plans only get in the way of imagination :lol: .
.....WARNING....
Contains images that anoraks may find disturbing.
1:24 scale 16.5mm gauge.
Yes I know it's all old and rusty, but I just model things as I see them......
Have a good one....John B.

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Postby Peter » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:48 am

I like seeing big layouts David :D
Looking froward to seeing progress David.
Failure is just success rounded down.

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Postby docnjoj » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:08 pm

Life is scary when a 2'x4' layout is called "big"! Doing the scene is going to be the hard/fun part. Thank U all for your expertise as I embark on this unknown journey!
Doc
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Postby Les » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:21 pm

David, that's a really neat track plan. Nice going. Now it's got me thinking... Good length continous run in 2'X4'. Hmmm....
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Analog DC reversing loops : Glad to see it helped : Thoughts

Postby Prof Klyzlr » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:30 am

Dear Doc, Modellers all,

Glad to see the "Reversing loop" technique is working for you. The original testbed was/is HOn30, with 4" radii curves, PECO setrack turnouts,
and nothing but a 9volt battery for a throttle/powersupply.

As long as the "constant direction of travel round the loops" is not an issue, there is absolutely no need for any form of active detectors, reed switches, Infra red, switching relays, or anything else. Indeed, if your rollingstock wheel specs are up to scratch, you can even shove a train "cars first" thru the loops and it will still work!
(Although, depending on the position of the "stop block" on the exit side of the loop, the train may be fouling the turnout when the loco stops).

I have played with, and am a big fan of, long delay "dumb timers" for simply back-n-forth train/animation control,
esp to give additional train motion to show layouts,
(the prevailing wisdom tends to suggest that the more trains moving on a show layout, the better :wink: ).

Unfortunately, most commercially available "dumb timers" are limited to around 90 seconds in either direction before "changing direction". Rob Paisley has an excellent "home brew" circuit which will do the same job, for a lot less than a commercial one, and gives the ability for the modeller to create their own "long time delay", by choice component selection...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/AutoRevCheap.html

Alternatively, you can simply use the reversing switch on your throttle, incurring NO extra time, expense, or controls to mess with! :D

NB that if you "change direction" on the throttle WHILE the train is IN MOTION on the loop,
it may "hesitate" if the throttle reversing switch doesn't switch smoothly,
but it will not Stop, or change direction!
(Thats what the Bridge Rectifier is there for).

If you do NOT change direction, the train will simply stop on the diode-fed "stop block", and patiently wait until the Mainline track's "polarity"/direction IS set to accept it.

NB that this can be used to advantage, to power a "green/red LED signal indication",

simply swing a Red and green LED back-to-back,
with a 1k resistor in series,
across the mainline track feed.

The loco will appear to stop in response to the RED signal when it trys to exit the loop, if the polarity/reversing switch is set "wrong",

and will carry on past the green signal if the polarity is "Right" :wink:

Alternatively, for those who are more "Semaphore Signal" inspired,
(I'm thinking of the UK NG and Heywood fans particularly),
do the same trick with a Circuitron "Tortoise" or MicroMark "SwitchTender" switch motor or similar,
brass wire-in-tube linked thru the benchwork to a model semaphore...
(The average 0 - 12 VDC on our tracks is plenty to give a nice "slow motion" semaphore motion,
and at around 30ma at stall,
shouldn't add any significant load to the throttle!)

Anyway, glad to hear it's a "working solution",
Looking forward to seeing how the layout turns out :wink:

BTW, 2' X 4' layout = large?

That can be an entire empire if designed "in kind",
It's not GnXX, but try these examples,

http://www.geocities.com/loggingloco1/BVT
Broughton Vale Tramway
3 X HOn30 scenes in 2' X 4',
giving continuous run AND purposeful operation.

http://www.geocities.com/loggingloco1/Camp4
Designed to fit in the 13" X 19" X 9" carry-on airplane baggage size limits,
HOn30 logging, 4 scenes, and a warm and fuzzy carpet covered box :wink:

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Professor Klyzlr

"...Happily hauling hardwood behind Class B Climax 1375,
over the Pig Sty Pier trestle on Longworths Tramway,
somewhere deep in the Aussie Bush..."

PS "OzTrains" John G is being too modest, his "Yallah 2" layout has working examples of multiple "dumb timer" train operation AND handlaid "1 way turnouts",
and fits an entire On30 promo display measuring 8' X 3' in "Ready to Run" mode,
into a mere 2' X 4' for transport!!!!
(and weighs <20 kilos complete!!!)
Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

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Postby docnjoj » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:09 pm

Heres an update on the "Two Loops Latrec" Ry! The old Grandt Line Porter really does a good job, and has run for 10 minutes before derailing, even with my crappy trackwork! My old Hustler chassis wont make it thru the first go round. (Too low Latrec). I have to go away for Thanks G,so cannot work on it till Mon. Since those are the only 2 working chassies I own, I will use the Porter (which will become GN15 asap) until my Bachmann Trolley and Scott B's Lister arrive! I think I will try to get bigger wheels for the Hustler, as it was regeared with a NWSL gearset, and can run real slow
Image

Image
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Postby AndyA » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:03 pm

Looking at the reversing/delay part of the thread, and in case this sparks off any ideas with others here (which for me is the best part of this list) I remember another (see traversers) pre-1980 article, this time I think in Railway Modeller.

Someone built what I think is the ultimate 'just watch the trains going past' layout in N, with a scenicked bit of double track, served by a huge dogbone behind the scenic area. To run something like five trains, it was set up with six dead spots, and operated with some form of tape loop with a foil section that passed across sets of contacts, making each spot live in turn.

If it triggers anyone else's memory I think some loco's and coaches were painted in different liveries on the two sides, so that going left-to-right the diesel was green. right to left it was blue, and so on, so that it looked like even more rakes were in use.

Steve et al, I'd go look for these articles myself, but the hall and living room are full of the stuff from the study (I did say I'd sort it whilst Sue's away) and I gnow the articles are in 'zines in the loft, for which there is currently no room. Even I am not mad enough to sort through old MRs or RMs using an inspection lamp. :)

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Doc's locos, Porter VS Hustler

Postby Prof Klyzlr » Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:01 am

Dear Doc,

by the underside pics you posted,
I'd guess that the Hustler's axle spacing is longer than the Porters, yes?

This <May> be part of the Hustler's problem,
(IE why the Hustler has issues, and the Porter runs OK on this trackwork)

the longer the rigid wheelbase,
the more critical the loco will be of rough track, esp on tight curves.

Geometry says that a long wheelbase 2 axle unit will have it's axles furthur "out of perpendicular" to the centreline of the curve,

even worse the tighter the curve,

and the more "out of alignment" it is,
the more the axles will be "sliding"/skuffing rather than actually rolling.

For bonus points, the "skewed" front
(as determined by the direction of travel)
axle wheels will be rubbing their flanges harder against the inside of the outside rail,

(some might actually find the flanges DIGGING into the side of the railhead, leaving scalloping marks over many runs,
12"/1' scale gear makes exactly these kind of marks on prototype rail,
and is used by Rail Accident Investgators to work out "what went wrong")

making them even MORE susceptible to picking even the tiniest lump/bump/crevice/kink/mis-aligned track join,
(and probably taking the slightest invitation to "climb the outside rail", off and away into the weeds...)

Just a thought...
Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

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Postby docnjoj » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:49 am

Sorry to resume tis thread after so long an interval, but life does intrude on having fun sometimes. I had pneumonia and my wife broke her foot on our friends stairs during Christmas and these events kinda kept us buisy. Thank you Prof Klyzir for your interest and elucidation. Yes, the Hustler has too long a wheelbase to stay on Two Loops Latracks loops! Thanks, oztrains and tomanycats for your help. I have been attempting to refine the trackwork and have hooked up my radio control (cheep Aristo) so as tobeable to walk around and see where derailments do occur, and have gotten them mostly under control. I want to use my reed switches and a rely to make continuous (or gnearly) running, and have ordered internet parts, as Radioshack now only seems to have radios, and no electronics stuff. I will needmore clarification of the reed and relay system (maybe, John) when the parts show. Then starts the real scary part, scenery! Thanks for your help!
Doc
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Postby docnjoj » Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:07 pm

"Use one output from the speed controller/transformer(+ve) as the input to one set of contacts, use other wire (-ve) from the speedcontroller/transformer as the input to the other set of contacts. One wire from the same side of each set of contacts goes to one of the short stop sections, (remember to cross over the set of leads going to the other short stop section), 3 for the coil - center common/top to 1 reverse loop reed switch/bottom to other reed switch, so there are 9 contacts all up."

I'm afraid I got a bit confused by the above statement, even though it was written a while ago! My rela!y is a DTDP latching one with six switching poles and 2 coils, each energising one side. There is a way to wire up the 6 contacts for reverse loops just like a regular switch, but I cant remember it!

Diagram of relay: 1 2 3 0 0
4 5 6 0 0
switch dual coil
contacts 1 and 3 are connected
contacts 4 and 6 are connected
2 and 5 dont make a circuit with any others. I understand the dual coil, but not the reversing switch part! Any help from oztrains or other experts will be greatly appreciated
Thanks
Doc
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Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:13 pm

Conventionally, if looking down on the underside of a DPDT switch, there are six terminals.

Image

The power into the switch goes to the middle pair of connections, the outer pairs are connected diagonally, two leads taken from these will give you reversed power when the switch is thrown.

What you need to do with the relay is to operate the coil to make it swap over, then check the connections to see which ones are connected together, from this you can work out which are the two commons and which pair of terminals are related to which common.

Hope this helps
Barry Weston



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Never knowingly sensible!

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Postby docnjoj » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:28 pm

Thank U! Just got it and tomorrow we'll see if al the reed switches and relay work! ThankU!
Doc
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Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:32 pm

No worries Doc glad to help :D
Barry Weston



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The only thing that keeps me sane, is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes....



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Re: Turnouts

Postby docnjoj » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:31 pm

Well to return after many years with an update. The double reverse loop worked fine and I was able to have automatic running by following an article on how to solder the points and cut flangeways, having the electronics do the auto-reverse activated by reed switches. Quite the job. Coming back to the hobby after almost 6 years, I just ordered and installed the Deltang Radio control and will be using deadrail for my new layout. No wires at all to the tracks and minimal use of switches with hand throws. If I do a reverse loop I will try to find that article on either spring loading or soldering and recutting flangeways to make any reverse loop automatic without electronics. Yahoo, no more wiring!. Any suggestions on spring loaded or soldered solid turnouts will be greatly appreciated.
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Re: Turnouts

Postby docnjoj » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:05 pm

I just found Prof Klyzir's Dynamite Canyon which has the solid switch reverse loops. I still like the efficiency of space with a long run that the double ended reverse loops give, and with no electronics required anymore with R/C, it will be much easier to set up. Stay tuned for photos. Obviously any sidings will have operating switches. probably with manual throws.
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Re: Turnouts

Postby Geeky Gecko » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:48 am

Chris said:
Gnot exactly a sprung point but this modification performs the same
function.

http://www.geocities.com/loggingloco1/d ... points.htm

I have performed the surgery on a Peco Point and it works as advertised.
First Time :shock: :shock: Not through skill, just lucky :(


geocities has long gone but found these:

http://murquick-mine.co.uk/AheadOnlyPointOO9.html

http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_model/mem ... Canyon.pdf
Stefan

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Re: Turnouts

Postby docnjoj » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:53 pm

Yep that bottom one is the Dynamite Mine from Prof Klyzir. I am experimenting with a no solder means of keeping the points open without needing to switch them. The solder method works fine but I am attempting to avoid cutting the rails. Stay tuned and we shall see if it works.
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