Tenshodo V Black Beetle

For discussion of the issues faced when building a model or layout - how to replicate wood, what glues to use, exactly how much weathering can a Gnat take, a good source of detailing accessories - you get the picture, I'm sure.

Moderator: GnATTERbox Moderators

cp409067
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 9:38 pm
Location: UK
Interests: NG modelling

Re: Smooth and slow running of cheap Hornby chassis.

Postby cp409067 » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:13 pm

***
Last edited by cp409067 on Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Gerry Bullock
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:07 pm
Location: S.E.Essex
Interests: Gn15 and O Gauge at Club.

Postby Gerry Bullock » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:01 am

Glen A wrote:
Yes I really would like to see it. And Gerry's salt works. Who knows, one day I might make it over...if my wife wins lotto.


Actually owned by Basildon MRC Glen, I'm just the member responsible for its wellbeing. :wink:
The Saltpan or Secciole Salina to give its correct name does feature on a professional video made by "Therailwaychannel" although I've Gnever seen it and I've no idea what it's called. :oops: It was filmed at our Club premises some years back so doesn't include all the buildings/rollingstock that are included today.
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
http://gn15gnutt.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Gerry Bullock
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:07 pm
Location: S.E.Essex
Interests: Gn15 and O Gauge at Club.

Postby Gerry Bullock » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:47 pm

Christopher recommended the KPC controller; for another cheaper handheld (or Panel Mount unit) I can recommend Modelex which we use with the Saltpan.
Not a Feedback unit but has been used by WHEELS ( Brian Stubbles) over some 200+ Shows without any problems.
You'll note that Modelex also have other interesting products at reasonable prices.
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.

http://gn15gnutt.blogspot.com/

jeffb
'boxer
'boxer
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: West Hartford, CT USA
Interests: Model trains, mainly HOn2/n30, Sn18 and recently, Gn15. Also, weight lifting and mountain biking

Postby jeffb » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:44 pm

I agree with a lot of what has been said about what helps slow speed performance, but would like to add more...

In most if not all cases, the higher the gear ratio the better. How high is subjective. Some modelers like the option of being able to run their locomotives at higher than scale speeds. Others want the max motor speed to correspond to the max speed of the prototype modeled.

A reasonable gear ratio (IMO, between 25:1 and 50:1 depending upon drive wheel diameter and motor size), with a smooth, bind free chassis, decent motor and good controller, will produce excellent slow speed running. I've built chassis' with scale 33" diameter drive wheels, a 36:1 gear ratio and a Mashima 1020 can motor that will run smoothly and consistantly at under a scale mph.

Really excessive gear ratios (some mentioned here were above 200:1), are fine if you like mind numbing slow speeds, but require that the motor be turning pretty high rpms for anything but a snail's crawl. This can contribute significantly to noise (but necessarily always), motor and gear train wear. Through experience, I've come to the conclusion that anything above 100-120:1 is not practical for small drivered Narrow gauge locomotives. But to each his own...

Better motor quality and larger motors can make up for lack of gear reduction, as does a good controller. High quality Coreless motors make up for a lot of short comings, but can't work miracles on a poor quality chassis. Same can be said of DCC, or a good DC controller. There's only so much you can do for a bad running chassis.

One of the biggest benefits to operation, at least from my experience is adding compensation/equalization to a chassis. In instances where the modeler is limited to off the shelf commercial chassis', then what was said above applies.

This is my first post at the GnATTERbox, and I look forward to being a part this group.

Best regards,

JeffB

User avatar
Stu
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: Worthing, West Sussex. UK.
Interests: Narrow Gauge & US outline

Postby Stu » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:56 pm

jeffb wrote:One of the biggest benefits to operation, at least from my experience is adding compensation/equalization to a chassis.


Welcome Jeff..

At the risk of sounding thick can you explain what you mean by 'adding compensation/equalization to a chassis' :?:
A coffee table used for coffee is a waste of space!

jeffb
'boxer
'boxer
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: West Hartford, CT USA
Interests: Model trains, mainly HOn2/n30, Sn18 and recently, Gn15. Also, weight lifting and mountain biking

Postby jeffb » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:59 pm

At the risk of sounding thick can you explain what you mean by 'adding compensation/equalization to a chassis'


Not a problem Stu...

Compensation/equalization is where the axles/drive wheels of a chassis have the ability to float to accomodate vertical variations in the track/rail.

The link below explains it in far better detail than I possible could.

http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html

I've been building compensated mechanisms for a few years now, and wouldn't go back to a rigid framed chassis for any reason.

I just recently completed an HOn30 0-6-0 mechanism for a locomotive for my oldest son. It is compensated, with a 45:1 gear ratio, and Mashima 1220 can motor running on DC voltage provided for by an ancient controller. It has no flywheel, but because of the consistant six wheel contact that the compensation provides, it runs smoothly, without sputtering even down to less than 1smph (about 4 minutes to go 1 meter).

Hope that helps!

Jeffb

User avatar
Stu
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:32 pm
Location: Worthing, West Sussex. UK.
Interests: Narrow Gauge & US outline

Postby Stu » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:23 pm

LOL, I didn't know where to start on that link..

I'm presuming it's similar to a live axle..
A coffee table used for coffee is a waste of space!

jeffb
'boxer
'boxer
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: West Hartford, CT USA
Interests: Model trains, mainly HOn2/n30, Sn18 and recently, Gn15. Also, weight lifting and mountain biking

Postby jeffb » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:37 pm

[quote="Stu"]LOL, I didn't know where to start on that link..

I'm presuming it's similar to a live axle..[/quote]

Yeah there's a lot too it!

I guess "live axle" could be another word for it.

Sorry to hijack this topic...

Getting back to the original subject, IMO the Tenshodo power truck is lacking in gear reduction for the motor type it has. I'd also be concerned about the longevity of the units because of the gear size/pitch, being used for such large scale applications. Which is not so say that they won't last long, or haven't lasted long under exhibition conditions. I'd just be concerned about it.

Does anyone use the PDT's manufactured by NWSL here in the States? They use similar pitch gearing, but you can get them in gear ratios up to 45:1....

JeffB

NICKJW
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: essex
Interests: most modelling disciplines. Layouts exhibited: CWMOER, CWMDU & NANT-Y-GLO MINE

Postby NICKJW » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:25 pm

Hi all

I always use Tenshodo power bogies in my 0:16.5 loco's. If anyone has seen my layout (Nantyglo Mine) run at exhibitions, you will note that the loco's always run at pretty much snail speed.

Weight is important but the main reason they run so smoothly and slowly is that I use a Feedback controller (Gaugemaster). I have probably around 20 Tenshodo units and they all run perfectly. Sure, they get hot but they still keep running! I have changes a few nylon gears now and then but by and large, they NEVER let me down.

By the way, not all motors like Feedback controllers so beware.

Just my pennies worth...

User avatar
grombert
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:46 pm
Location: Crowborough
Interests: GN15 convert, but still 009

Postby grombert » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:07 pm

Hi,
I have to agree that the 'Bill/Ben' chassis is one of the best I have come across for reliability, but difficult to bash into anything freelance. Similarly the Tenshodo spuds are a constant source of trouble that need a lot of 'tickling'. I haven't had experience of the Black Beetle but they look a bit 'clunky' to me. maybe I should try one.
I expected to have problems making my own mechs to fit, as I'm not the World's best engineer, but there is little that is simpler than putting a Mashima motor straight onto a worm and axle with a 40/1 gear ratio. I always use brass gearing as I prefer a bit of noise to losing teeth or split centres at an exhibition. All the mechs I have made have been very reliable - so far - much to my surprise. All I need now is a source of 12mm (or thereabouts) brass channel so I can stop needing to sweat a strip onto angle. I can get ally but not brass, so soldering is not an option. Needless to say I find the instant fix and refix of soldering better than the one hit of poxy resin. I suggest everyone should have a go at making their own. That way it is always going to fit.
Have fun
If you can't manage to BE something then MAKE something instead

User avatar
Willow Creek Traction
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:14 am
Location: Boonville, Missouri, USA
Interests: HO, On30, G/Hn15, regular G, kites, model rockets, the occasional model boat, retro sci-fi miniatures game.

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:46 am

jeffb wrote:The link below explains it in far better detail than I possible could.
http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html


Man, whoever put that together ought to be given university credit for it.
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

User avatar
Geeky Gecko
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Interests: modelling in card

Compensation

Postby Geeky Gecko » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:15 am

Stu wrote:
can you explain what you mean by 'adding compensation/equalization to a chassis'

When I started building chassis with compensation, I found it helped to think of a traditional farm tractor where the front axle is allowed to rock about a central pivot. This central pivot means the weight is distributed evenly (almost) on both wheels. With regard to railway models, if the axle is merely allowed to move up and down freely within axle slots, as on most RTR models, the majority of the weight will be on one wheel. This is not good news for electrical pick-up. This picture from the clag site;http://www.clag.org.uk/pics/digest41-0/fig35.gif
Stefan


Return to “Modelling Matters”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron