Pilgrim Quay

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Pilgrim Quay

Postby AndyA » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:08 am

It has just occurred to me that I've several times mentioned Pilgrim Quay and said "see the Tome" without further reference. Now I do recommend everyone to read every issue of the Tome, and perhaps consider writing for it. But I also early on realised and mentioned that the track-plan in there is not the final intended version, and I'm going to do a little more research in my lunch hour, so I thought I'd start a thread.

As I developed the plan I decided that this will be my long-term project - I'm still working on Cuddle, 1160(S), and Begijnendijk, and there's a board for what may eventually be Sue's project, and the board is too big to be easily worked on in small snatches, but that I'd like to make a good job of it. So, firstly, this is the final track-plan - I really meant to have George include this one but we were both in a bit of a rush.

Image

The background is more fully explained in the article, but in summary, Southampton still has some town walls and gates standing and I discovered three old photos in a pub showing the area around the old quay. I postulated that if the quay hadn't been stranded by land reclamation this might make a good excuse for a fifteen-inch railway, using the same rationale of Christopher's 'Sutton Wharf', that the steam railway replaced an earlier single-track horse-tram. The grey bit is the wall itself, the gap at the left is 'Pilgrim's Gate', in reality vanished by the sixteen hundreds and renamed Biddlesgate at some point. At the right, the turntable actually only acts as a sector-plate, giving access to the bonded warehouse (the thin bit). To operate as a super-Inglenook, the doors at the warehouse are closed. To operate as roundy-roundy, open the doors and lock the sector-plate in place, giving a true Inglenook.

I earlier posted an illustration of the value of the Tome: I printed a copy of the final article to take to the pub where the photos are on display. He took it down to the celebration of the Best Bar None awards, in reality a multi-landlord piss-up, and another landlady said "I've got a different one in my pub'. I'll dig it out later and post that as well.

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Postby Bob Taylor » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:23 am

There is nothing like doing railway research in a pub :D :wink: It's to be encouraged!

I always have problems downloading the Tome so I've missed this one :oops: Reading your brief summery though I feel it could be a winner. Rewriting history a little is not unusual in model railway circles. A horse drawn tramway and then, later, with the introduction of small locomotives a industrial tramway is more than believable. I've used the same basic excuse for my own layout :D

Will watch this one because it contains a lot of features I also find interesting.

Keep up the research. :lol:



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Postby David James » Wed Aug 27, 2008 11:54 am

Railway research in a pub!?

I may need to move to England!!

Nahhh, they would not have me. :twisted:

I also have had problems downloading the Tome.

But, I figured out, if you open the download in IE, and then when the page opens, click file, save as, and then hit save in the new window, it will zoom onto your PC for you to open.

I only needed to do that for a few stubborn issues which seemed to crash my Adobe reader.

Just tryin to help out. :idea:

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Postby AndyA » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:55 pm

Here's the promised photo. The original copy was awful, but good enough for me. This one is rather better and I shall give up hte unequal struggle at this point.

Image

What you're seeing if you nearly close your eyes and squint carefully is a view looking right to left along my track-plan, the buildings at the left end being where the Pilgrim Gate was. They've now been replaced by some brick flats, I gather because of inaccurate bombing rather than nineteen-sixties planners. A view down towards the old waterfront between the new buildings is the sixth picture (second-last) down at

http://www.pd49.dial.pipex.com/places/walls/pylgersput.html

but I'll get a better one. Soon, just like the other one :)

At the end of my walk of the supposed track the research became agnother two pubs. I was heading to the bar of the Dolphin, my supposed inland terminus, when there was a banging on the window. It was a walking-stick possessed by an old journo (journalist, but the term may mean something extra to a few here) friend who I first met in the early eighties on Fleet Street. We've met occasionally since the end of the dispute and are, despite everything, friends.

I joined him. He berated me for the 'disabled friendly' walk in the link above. "I admit that you walk up Blue Anchor, but you don't say that trying to take one of those shopmobility buggies down is like downhill skiing." I guess I'll add a sidebar. Then he waved the stick and, despite the packed lunchtime bar, managed to get me a wine. We discussed why I was there.

"So where does the track of this supposed railway run?" I told him. He thought for a minute and said "No, surely you'd turn right out of here and then down..." and on reflection he was right. "I spent the morning following your walk in that d*mned buggy, so I know every gradient. It's okay using your track down, but you'd be silly to try bringing a loco back up that way. Use too much coal."

He's an ex-Guards officer who served in three wars and then joined a major daily after de-mob, so I guess I shouldn't be so surprised that he gnows something about everything. Then his taxi turned up.

"Where's that photo of yours, young man?" He used the tone of voice my mother used to do when I'd done something very wrong. I told him.

"Come on then, let's see." I had already spent more time than I intended, but he's not someone you argue with. The driver has obviously carried him before: he sighed, then we went to the other pub. I tried to buy him a drink but somehow he ended up paying. He wobbled over to the picture, which is in the dark bit, hence the camera-shake n my bad grab shot.

"Nice. D'you know who it's by?"

"No-one has any idea: all these and the ones at the other pub (shudders, thinking of a trip right the way across town in this traffic) have been on the inventory forever."

"I'll try to trace it for you"

"But there's no trace of it on the internet."

"Young man, if you want to trace a picture, you don't use Google, you use a proper picture researcher. And not all of my old mates from the rag are dead." Somehow he's persuaded the landlady to unscrew the thing from the wall next time I come in so I can get a proper shot. I'm to phone her when I'll be around with my camera. I look forward to having that kind of respect - but perhaps it's the immaculate suit and the Guards tie, which I'll never have.

The taxi hooted. We drank up, Naturally we missed the train on which his disabled attended service was booked, but for some reason no-one at the station minded. They found the wheelchair, worked out when the next train was and he managed to persuade the nice lady pushing the chair to go and get us a drink each, his being one of those giant mixed gin-and-tonics. Then she sat down with her phone to re-book his change of train.

Just before he left, he outlined a rather better back-story than mine. Why hadn't I thought of it? "I spent seventeen years having to get a new viewpoint on some story from Reuters in Singapore that no-one knew anything about."

You'll need to wait for the first installment, because he insisted on editorial approval. He'll never change. Hopefully.

regards
Andy A
Last edited by AndyA on Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GUTMACH » Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:37 am

Most interesting, Andy, nice little project you got there.

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Postby AndyA » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:00 am

A few years ago I had to run a song-writing workshop. Now dance workshops I'm good at, but this was a bit of a challenge. I decided that the best hing to do was just take one of my songs, show the thought-processes behind it and then get a discussion going between any of the participants who had their own problems. So, in the same spirit, if any of this helps anyone else, great. Equally, if anyone has ideas, feel free to wade in.

Below is the product of my discussions with my mate last week. Red marks the revised track-plan, the blue section top left is where the shoreline was at this period, and marked on it are three of the (approximate) photograph sight-lines. A being the first photo from the Tome, B the second and C the new photo posted above. The third photo from the Tome is of Winkle Street, which is to the south of this (Google Earth) frame.

Image

The track turns the illogical way along High Street, but when it turns left the gradient along what is Simnel Street is do-able for a loco hauling two passenger coaches, whereas my solution would in reality have limited it to one coach. My rote also used one side of St Michael's Square, and in retrospect I doubt the devout of the parish would have allowed trains right next to the church, no matter how tiny said trains were. I know that (a) this is Gn15 and therefore reality need not intrude and (b) since I'm only modelling the quay anyway, the actual route doesn't matter, but there's another part to this long-term project, suggested by Steve B at Swanley. :wink:

Anyway, the discussions with my friend and the thoughts it promoted between gigs yesterday have uncovered a problem/improvement - in what may be a first for me, this has been detected before everything was glued in place. :)

The cluster of yellow-tinted buildings top left matter. "1" is the present-day Endeavour pub. "2" is my best guess for the location of the original George Tavern, mentioned in the C15 Terrier. "3" is where I've moved it to (roughly) so that it can be seen through the gate. But if it's there, then the whole of that block on the north side of Simnel Street needs to be there, leaving no room for the sheds (but generating a scenario where the regulars of the pub, probably to be renamed The Pilgrim, can sit and watch the trains, bringing back memories for me of the Sailor's Return in Weymouth.

Thus, the only possible location for the sheds is further down the waterfront below and left of the trackwork. Now, I may one day want to make an add-on board, so I need to be able to either run through the sector-plate, or add another point somewhere in the bottom left of the track-plan. More fiddling is therefore required.

regards
Andy A
Last edited by AndyA on Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DCRfan » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:41 am

Your having way too much fun with this research. The way you are going it will soon be part of accepted folk law.

It is amazing how history can be forgotten. The remains of a long closed line was recently uncovered in the CBD of our capital when a building was pulled down for redevelopment. See
http://www.nzpaimages.co.nz/events.php?event_id=4186
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Postby AndyA » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:04 pm

Nice link. possibly the remains of my 15" gauge line will be discovered when they get down to High Street with the resurfacing work.

As to folklore, yes I admit that I'm treating it the same way that I do when I'm researching folk plays, dances etc. And in one case two of us spent a whole autumn with a bunch of informants. only to discover, when we pieced it all together, that we'd collected our own play back again, just that the locals figured it had first been performed in their grandparents' time. So yep, II'll try to be careful. :)

I might have accidentally walked past Wickes earlier and they have 25mm polystyrene in huuuge sheets at UKP5.95. Add in the card for four sheets at UKP1.99 each and the only real problem is going to be stashing the remaining styrene so that I can build about 100 "Simplicity Sidings" over the years. I have, after all, nearly used all the 8mm MDF boards I had to buy last time around.

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Postby Steve Bennett » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:34 pm

AndyA wrote:I might have accidentally walked past Wickes earlier and they have 25mm polystyrene in huuuge sheets at UKP5.95.


What I want to see, is how you are going to get it home on the train :lol:
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Postby AndyA » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:01 pm

It's within easy walking distance, so the worst risk is a high wind. The board might break, or indeed at my size I might take off. :)

However, I once took eight eight-foot dancing staves (see the pd49 site) by train from York to Southampton including changing tube trains at Oxford Circus, so I'd probably get away with it if I really had to. :)

I had access to a van on Friday but couldn't think of any place to stash an eight by four sheet until next weekend. :)

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Postby AndyA » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:44 am

Okay, after a couple of days' thought, I've decided that the easy solution is the best.

Image

Having carefully worked out the maximum size of board that can be carried easily around the house and built Sue's board to that width, I used all the recoverable timber from the pallet, which is why it's not going to be easy to work on his in snatches, unless I commit a radical tidying of the study and throw out lots of stuff. But, the extra width does allow me to revert so that the Bond/Custom House sticks out he way the building does in the original photo, rather than being recessed.

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Postby Steve Bennett » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:51 am

Surprising what difference a few extra inches can make :) looks a good compromise Andy, gives you more space for the players on the stage aswell :wink: .
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Postby AndyA » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:47 pm

gives you more space for the players on the stage as well :wink:


I'm not completely sure that's a good idea :), but you're right. It does also give me room for a convincing passenger platform. And the rethink on the walls saves having to model a mix of stone and brick where the gap in the wall was going to be (there are a number of prototypes but I gnow my limitations).

Given the proximity to the docks there are a surprising number of good period prototypes remaining for the building. In reality it was originally a pub at the time I'm modelling, a slightly run-down but fun restaurant when I first knew it, now being re-furbed so presumably to re-open as a gastropub we can't afford to eat in (and anyway who wants a view out over the De Vere hotel).

I think that in reality they'd just have had a point/turnout bottom right, just next to the water. But I couldn't face trying to hand-lay a point on the tight radius (the 'list' in the Tome says setrack and flextrack), and the trackwork is somewhat reminiscent of a piece I photographed in the now-prettified Leith Docks area of Edinburgh earlier this year. Never throw good research away. :)

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Postby AndyA » Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:53 am

Okay. having aimed to be out of the house by even, Sue finally left at 7:30. I checked the weather forecast - a three hour gap in the rain, winds 10-15 knots. Hmmm.

I got the framework out of its hidey-hole and stuck it in the kitchen.

Image

Then I went and got the sheet of expanded polystyrene. Result - they undercharged me by two quid - not that the stuff is that expensive anyway, but the sheet had now cost less than a large glass of wine in the pub. Sadly no-one was around to photograph me as the sheet instantly turned into a sail. I got halfway home very slowly, then it broke.

Image

Not the disaster it might have been, since it broke almost in the middle - I should have thought about it and cut it in half at the shop - the second half of the walk was much quicker, and I'm making a sandwich anyway, with three pieces of card top and bottom, so I'll just tape the manufactured edges together. My plan is to get the card - I haven't enough because two sheets won't cover the framework, then instead of making the sandwich and glueing it on, clad the frame with the bottom layer of card, then invert the thing over the styrene so that I can weight the card down and leave it for most of the day - I'm unsure how long the PVA will take to dry under these circumstances; probably a lot longer than normal.

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Postby AndyA » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:50 am

I love it when a plan comes together. But of course bodgers never have plans. This job would have been a lot easier if I had stuck to my original dimensions and resisted filching the pallet. Or indeed if I'd known I was going to try doing it this way, and measured a standard sheet of card before dismantling it to make the board.

This is the problem.

ImageImage

So by nine o'clock I was walking back down to get more card. I could, of course, have measured the thing earlier in the week and done this yesterday, but...

So, I cut three pieces to fit across the braces. Despite my best efforts when I built it, the spacing is, of course, not quite spot on, so all three pieces had to be cut individually. Then I spread the framework top with high grip PVA, put the sheets on, and weighted them. The more astute reader may begin to guess why I had to wait until Sue is away... :)

Image

Since this is turning into Yucatan all over again, I'll say now that if I was starting again I'd build the sandwich and then glue it to the frame. It's now ten thirty, sweat is pouring off me and although the plan was to start on the Simplicity clone right now while it sets off, I can't face it, so I'm going for a walk. Why am I going for a walk? Well, I think I'm going to need to reinforce the glue with something else (this is an experiment after all) - the obvious for a bodge would be gaffer tape but bear in mind that this is my long-term project, so I think I'll pin it. Can I find the wide-headed tacks I used for Sue's board. Three guesses, folks. :)

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Last edited by AndyA on Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Steve Bennett » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:55 am

:lol: Sounds like you are having fun Andy :)
Sue will be pleased, looks like you took the opportunity to clear out the kitchen cupboards aswell :lol:
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Postby MOG » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:17 am

:D I really should drop by the old Gnatterbox more often - I forgot how entertaining your threads are Andy!
If you ever wonder if it's worth the time presenting your thought processes to the world the way you do.. yes, it is (despite the entertainment, it's always intriguing to see what you're building)
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Postby KEG » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:23 am

Hi,

I just love the spooky colours in the construction pictures. Seems like the big baseboad conspiricy.

If I´d tell somebody over here about the bloke who does his railway research in the pub und uses the contents of the kitchen cupboard for weighting down the boards, people would raise more than an eyebrow.

Very encouriging thread.

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Postby Gerry Bullock » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:50 pm

I always thought that using contents of Kitchen cupboards to weigh down a board was standard practice. :roll:
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
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Postby AndyA » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:36 pm

D*mn this Gn15 stuff keeps you fit. All the way down there and no tacks with the thin stems. The thicker kind would undoubtedly split the end-grain of the plywood, so... On the way back I remembered that I have some 8mm PSE pine that I can cut into short lengths to strengthen the joints (I nearly bought some plastic blocks at the store but realised just in time that they're polythene and I don't have any of the Prof's loctite).

So I got back (after meeting a mate in agnother pub, of which a little more below) and picked the thing up brutally by the edges. I figured that if the top was going to fall off, best it be now, but it stayed in one piece (you can see it to the right of the first picture). Then I trimmed the insulation sheet, taped the edges together and coated both surfaces with some thin (craft) PVA.

ImageImage

I laid the frame and card upside down on the sheet, and weighted it with more stuff. Why weight it down all over? the card will be strong and level when glued to the sheet, but at the moment it's flexible.

I figure that I can put the reinforcing blocks on sometime early evening, and then turn it over and put the card on the top last thing tonight. It should set hard by the end of Broadcasting House tomorrow morning, leaving me plenty of time to hoover up and make enough space to hide the now-thicker board.

ImageImage

Thanks to Steve for this idea, the board is already unwieldy, but if I'd clad it with Ply It would be impossible to move it around the house.

I just love the spooky colours in the construction pictures. Seems like the big baseboad conspiricy.


Yeah, the combination of halogen and directional daylight is mucking up the white balance something chronic. The current RGB filter is the best I can do unless you're a real fan of bright orange. I blame the weather. :)

If I´d tell somebody over here about the bloke who does his railway research in the pub


Sadly, slightly bitter-sweet memories now. The guy I met at lunchtime also knows the journo I was talking to, and he reports that the old guy has had to move from sheltered accommodation into a fully fledged care home. This didn't, in all honesty, come as a shock, but it's sad nonetheless. It won't be the last drink, because a bunch of us are plotting to go up and take him for a pub lunch when I get back from Hungary - there is apparently a good pub just down the road, may have been a factor in his choosing the place.

On a brighter note, the mutual friend was asking about the model. He said "I used to have a model railway but the (retirement) flat is too small. So I told him about "Simplicity Sidings". I figure running off two sets of boards in parallel isn't going to be a hassle, to get him started, but he's a cabinet-maker by trade, so I expect to see a french-polished board with immaculate dovetail joints sometime soon.

und uses the contents of the kitchen cupboard for weighting down the boards, people would raise more than an eyebrow.


I am indeed taking the opportunity to go through some cupboards, replace the lining paper and throw out a few things that look dodgy. I'm sure there's a good reason why we have almost a dozen tins of tomato puree, but I don't really feel like thinking about it. The only problem is that after I've vacuumed all the polystyrene beads that have trodden all over the house already from when I cut the first bit of sheet without sharpening the knife, and done the cupboards, Sue is going to suspect something.

Anyway, gnow for Simplicity itself.

regards
Andy A
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Postby AndyA » Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:02 pm

If you ever wonder if it's worth the time presenting your thought processes to the world the way you do..


Actually one reason that I post when things go wrong, is that on some other lists it's easy to get discouraged because everyone seems to do perfect work.

If I can post about messing something up (which is okay on this list) and (less frequently) how I managed to make it work anyway, then: (a) it may encourage other people to have a go, which is part of the point of this list; (b) it may stop someone else making the same mistake; (c) s9omeone else may figure out a way of putting it right and save me the bother; and (d) what I did wrong may give someone else a good idea, in which case hopefully they'll post it and we'll all gain.

If people are entertained as well, that's a great bonus.

regards
Andy A
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind

gnine: less is the gnew more

GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

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Gerry Bullock
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Postby Gerry Bullock » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:41 pm

AndyA wrote:
I figure that I can put the reinforcing blocks on sometime early evening, and then turn it over and put the card on the top last thing tonight. It should set hard by the end of Broadcasting House tomorrow morning, leaving me plenty of time to hoover up and make enough space to hide the now-thicker board.

regards
Andy A


Now why would you want to hide it Andy :?: :twisted:
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.

http://gn15gnutt.blogspot.com/

tstone
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Postby tstone » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:08 pm

There is an artistic aesthetic to all those different sizes and colors of jars that I really like. :)

Plans and prototype look fun -- looking forward to see what comes out of this project.
On18 -- It's an even littler woooh-wooo.

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AndyA
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Andy died 14-Sep-2017 and will post no more. Travel well on your new guage.

Postby AndyA » Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:15 pm

Now why would you want to hide it Andy :?: :twisted:


It's been hidden behind an old table-top since I made it. She'll know soon enough but I want to hide it again as insurance in case maybe I haven't got the house tidy enough for her liking when she gets back. Having shifted the Simplicity boards (see that thread), there's now room to finish doing the cupboards, though. :)

I glued the reinforcing blocks on (you really don't want a pic, of that, right?. I reckon it all needs another couple of hours before I can turn it over, so I'm going to see if anyone's around in the local. Hopefully see everyone around ten.

regards
Andy A
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind

gnine: less is the gnew more

GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

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Trevor Coburn
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Postby Trevor Coburn » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:06 pm

The 'trick' will be to get allof those tins back in the cupboard, in EXACTLY the place they were before, else Sue will know you have been up to something :shock:
Keep it up, this site is the only entertainment I get at the moment, 14 hour working days in 30degC + 80% humidity are a bit much!
Trevor
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