Self-Acting Haulage Lines.

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Postby Bilco » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:17 am

Hi John,

This thread on making a tippler is on the NGRM forum http://www.ngrm-online.com/forum/viewto ... =33&t=4166

Might be adaptable to your needs.
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Postby Oztrainz » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:19 am

Hi all,
some more answers that might help point where we're off to:

For Glen,
the incline itself is comprised of 4 modules each 1200mm by 600mm.
The modules are:
bottom end, incline slope, top end, top dead-end.
These link to another 3 modules of the same size that are the start of the steam-hauled run to the mine to make Stage 1 of the layout.

For Adrian,
Yes I've seen Prof's Dynamite Canyon Tramway in the flesh. The original Geocities page is long gone, but Lynn Zelmer has the information on his site
http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_model/members/klyzlr/DynamiteCanyon.pdf

Unfortunately the magnet chain under the track requires a straight run that dictates the empty skip comes into the point via the straight leg. The point and dead-end are on a 1 in 10 rising grade, so that when the chain rolls around the end sprocket, the skip loses its magnetic pull, reverses and rolls out through the curved leg down to the low point behind the screens building. From here the empties incline chain will pick up the skip and drag it back up the hill. Any magnetic "shuffle" will hopefully be hidden by the screens building and chain conveyor to the screens building.

For both Adrian & Bilco, as far as tipples go, Corrimal was documented to have a side-dump tipple rather than a rotary tipple, so the model shows a a gearhead motor driving a worm that drives a small gear on the cage pivot shaft.

In the real world, no known photos exist of the innards of the tipple house, but it would be a fair bet that the cage tipped towards the screen building, and also that it had a counterweighted cage to bring the dumped skip back up to track level. The tipple dates from 1890 and predates electric motors. Unfortunately the magnet chain under the track rules out dropping the cage this way so a powered "up & over" tipple has been built to fit inside the screen building so that the coal is dumped away from the screens building. The skip will be held in a channel at the wheels while it is in the cage.

The jury is still out whether we will use the motor & worm drive, or go to a servo-driven large gear>small gear that will give us better than 90 degree travel for the cage. the cage needs to rotate through about 120 degrees to ensure that the skip is emptied.

Given that the prototype bottom end was a 2' gauge to standard gauge interchange, maybe we should ask the moderators if it is possible to move this topic to the Gnot Minimum Gauge section??? Any thoughts on this?
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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:50 am

Here is where we were at with the bottom end -
1 A view from the top of the incline
Image

2 - a closer view of the tipple and screens buildings
Image

Oztrainz wrote:For Glen,
the incline itself is comprised of 4 modules each 1200mm by 600mm.
The modules are:
bottom end, incline slope, top end, top dead-end.
These link to another 3 modules of the same size that are the start of the steam-hauled run to the mine to make Stage 1 of the layout.


But its now GREWSOME....
by adding an additional 200mm lenghth to the bottom module (now 1400mm by 600mm), squeezing the standard gauge track clearances and reworking the grades slightly I can now:
1 - fit in a scale length deck in front of the tipple
2 - have a "scale" length tipple house instead of the previous abbreviated version
3 - fit in all the standard gauge pointwork around the screens building
4 - simulate the box canyon for the standard gauge dead end sidings
5 - fit in a store building and vertical boiler that feature in photos of the actual incline

so we now have:
the new bottom-end buildings mocked up in full size
Image
the aluminium blocks represent the store building and vertical boiler

and standard gauge sidings in the the box canyon with the incline climbing away at the left of the photo
Image

I hope that all this is of some interest,
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Postby Glen A » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:06 am

Oztrainz wrote:I hope that all this is of some interest,


Sure is!

So how do you get on with the chain drive crossing module joins?
Or have you managed to contain the drive on one module?

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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:54 am

Hi Glen,
The two main incline chains will have to jump 2 module joints each. These will have to be split on tear-down and put away carefully because of the magnets. These chains will be supported in shallow aluminium channels attached to the module frames. Split zones will be built in so that we can get at the chain at a couple of places to assist in threading the chains for set up and removal during tear-down.

The third or tipple chain runs from just inside the tipple house, under the tipple cage, to the end of the module away from the incline. This chain will stay set set up on the bottom end module.
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Postby Glen A » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:11 pm

Thanks for the info.

The design engineering required to build the model is greater than the engineering in the real thing!

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Postby Adrian » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:49 pm

G'day John

The two main incline chains will have to jump 2 module joints each. These will have to be split on tear-down and put away carefully because of the magnets.
You is definitely a better man than I is John.

I realise that you have sound engineering reasons for doing what you are doing but I would not even attempt it. :shock: :shock: :shock:

I would either build bigger modules (not possible I do realise ), change the prototype ( not what you want to do ) or build a 'cartoon' version. ( my style ... not yours )

Good luck with it .... can't wait to see it at its first show :D :D :D :D
(just be sure to let us know where and when)
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Corrimal Colliery Incline Construction Progress Report

Postby Oztrainz » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:42 am

Hi all,
Another long overdue progress report... it has been over month since the last one, but there has been significant but slow progress

First some some construction photos - Pile driving for the tipple and deck was completed for the tipple deck area at the end of July
Image

When complete it should look something like the photo here:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/37539407

In late August, motive power arrived for the SG tracks shown in the piledriving photo. A green Ixion Models Husdswell Clarke 0-6-0ST will stand in the the two 1888-vintage Yorkshire 0-6-0T locos that actually worked the prototype.
Photos of the Hudswell Clarke in the 3 final liveries are at:
http://www.ixionmodels.com/7mm_hudswell_clarke.htm
Details of UK suppliers are on Ixion's home page. The model is even better than the photos. :D :D :D

Over the last month, work continued in fabricating and fine-tuning a rake of 15 final design coal skips. Two members of the team are resin casting our own skip bodies. Significant work was done to set up of uncoupling ramps and the DG couplings so that we can reliably uncouple one skip at a time from a rake of loaded skips as the skip is dragged forward by the next arriving under-track magnet. The top end test rig was recommissioned. A new "final" bottom-end mock up was built at final dimensions with multiple chain runs to test hands-off, fully-automatic handling of the tipping operation and the return of the empty skips.

The skips, uncoupler ramps and DG couplings are now sorted. There is still one stubborn skip that doesn't roll as well as the rest, but it is good enough to roll away under gravity on the 1-in-7 kickback to the empties incline.

Also finally sorted today is the gravity operated set of points with a moving weighted point lever that handles the empty skips after tipping at the down hill end of the incline. After tipping another undertrack chain simulates the creeper chain that lowered the skips after tipping from the tipple house to the return siding on the prototype. At the end of the creeper chain the empty skips were allowed to coast down a grade and then push wrong road through a set of points into a dead end. On the prototype, with approx 200lb of empty skip, there was enough inertia to push through a weighted point blades set for the empties incline. A short sharp grade after the points washed off the speed of the skip and sent it back through the points and down to a holding area just before the start of the empies incline that returned to skips uphill to the 400' level.

On the model a skip weighs in at just 15 grammes. The attraction between the magnet under the skip and the magnet on the undertrack chain provides enough downward force to prevent the skip from being derailed as it pushes the point blades over and raises the weighted point lever. As the last flange clears the point blade, the weighted lever takes over, resetting the blades for the diverge route. As the chain rolls over the sprocket at about a skips length clear of the point blades, the attraction betwwen the magnets is lost, gravity takes over, and the skip rolls away, and is sent down the other track to a dip that will be hidden by the screens building. The skip will wait there for the next magnet to arrive on the empties incline chain. The empties incline grade starts out reasonably shallow as it passes the tipple deck, but steepens quickly to the rulling 1-in-4 grade at the start of the second module.

Work continues on the building and testing the sequencing & integration of the control gear that manages the hands-free tipping operation. The building of another timer circuit, and the fine tuning of chain speeds is still in progress. The aim is simply to "unbolt" the electronics and attach them directly to the final drive motors and tipple cage.

I hope that all this is still of interest. Now, back to the soldering iron,
hopefully I won't fry too many silicon chips. :?
Last edited by Oztrainz on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Glen A » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:58 pm

I'm looking forward to see a movie when its all working!
A piece of art and fine engineering 8)

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Postby Oztrainz » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:51 pm

Hi all
Some progress
We got the chain passes running late Sunday afternoon for first time on both the up and down inclines and were able to tow some skips on some jury-rigged track on the inclines. At the end of the day we had 2 chain runs, each with over 5 metres of chain moving, With over 2 metres of chain in the support channels on each incline being visible. These support channels will be hidden by the tracks.

We also sorted out the trackplan for the top end.
Image

Here is what the bare bones look like - with the incline heading down at right, top dead-end at top left and the water tank module with top end storage roads closest to camera. When the photo was taken, the higher empties incline chain support channel still had to be cut to length and the chain motor installed.
Image

and the view from the top
Image
The green blob in the distance is the O standard gauge Hudswell Clarke by Ixion :shock:
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Postby Adrian » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:47 am

G'day John
At the end of the day we had 2 chain runs, each with over 5 meters of chain moving
How many frequent flyer points has that got you with Tamiya :?: :?:

Nice to hear that you are getting rid of the gremlins.....they can be persistent little critters, can't they ?
Trouble is you can get rid of all of them at home but move the layout and their relatives sneak in when you are not looking.

Nice to see that the layout is progressing ___ probably much faster than mine at the moment.
Will it, or bits of it, be at the convention at Easter ?

Keep up the good work.
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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:15 am

Adrian wrote:G'day John

Will it, or bits of it, be at the convention at Easter ?


Hi Adrian, The aim is to have Stage 1 there with scenery.
Image

Still working on the 3rd chain run under the tipple cage today. Then comes plating over the channels and tracklaying once we have the chains circulating sweetly
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Postby Glen A » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:10 am

:shock: Wow!
That plan puts a whole new perspective on it.
And I thought the incline was going to be the layout.
But when you see the over all plan its just a minor part!
I love the full plan though. Its going to be a very impressive and realistic operation that is going to attract a lot of interest.

I must admit that the display heights are a bit higher than I would have chosen. - its certainly going to be an 'adults only' layout at 1400mm - but thats your choice and I'm sure you have thought that part out carefully. :wink:

Just from my experience with the highest track height at 1100mm and then another 200-300mm high of rock cliff behind it can create some problems seeing and reaching over the top to fix problems in certain places for operators shorter than me. So you might have to keep a pair of stilts for short operators to wear. :lol:

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Postby Tomo » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:15 am

This appears to be a very ambitious project that warrants being watched closely!

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Postby Artizen » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:48 am

I saw the early bits of this layout at the Ipswich convention. Looking forward to seeing how it progresses by next Easter.

Glen - at 1400mm I would be standing out the front.

I have chosen 1200mm for my track height and because the dioramas are another 400mm higher again I will need to stand in front if ever I exhibit my layout.
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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:06 am

Hi all,
The display height has been deliberately chosen to give the impression of the railway running along the side of the mountain at 400' above sea level, just like the prototype. To be visually effective the incline also has to look (and is) too steep to be worked by conventional locomotives. The grade on the incline matches that of the prototype at approximately 1 in 4.

To put things in perspective, if the incline and railway were scaled out in 1/43, the layout would be just over 80' long and 10' high. with a final footprint of just on 6m (18') square, we have applied a fair bit of selective compression to the final plan.

With some careful chamferring of the front edge, we think that the vertically challenged should still able to see the train weaving in and out of cuttings and trees while hauling skips between the mine and the incline top. However if the viewing angles don't work out as expected, we can still shorten the legs up some. :twisted: Igor! Pass me the chainsaw.... :shock:
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Postby Adrian » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:59 am

G'day John
The aim is to have Stage 1 there with scenery.
Glad to hear. Looking forward to seeing it.

Looking at the final (?) plan I notice that it is the sort of layout shape that will drive exhibition bosses mad trying to fit it in !

I assume that it is viewed from the 'Brokers Nose' side of the layout ?

Still working on the 3rd chain run under the tipple cage today
More chain ?
No wonder there is none left in Australia :shock:

( Must admit that I thought 1400 mm was a little high although I do remember an 'after show' discussion regarding a
possible model of the Darjeeling railway which would have topped
out at over 2 mtrs (and that was in 009 ! )


Have a good day
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Postby Oztrainz » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:10 am

Hi Adrian,
The planned viewing sides are from the front (Brokers Nose) side and the right side along the length of the incline. That should give the exhibition bosses some options. :wink:

As for chain the 3rd chain is now in and working. We now have a couple of packets of chain spare (reserves). If you are desperate, send me a pm or give me a ring and I'll see what we can round up for you :D
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Postby Oztrainz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:20 am

Hi all
taken the same day as the last photos, here is a closer shot of the Hudswell Clarke and O standard gauge stock dwarfed by the rock walls at the western end of the standard gauge tracks
Image

Remember that 3rd chain? Well here is where it fits. This was taken before the tipple deck was plated and shows a stand-in tipple "cage" for sizing and checking clearances around the chain channel.
Image
showing the start of the chain feeding the tipple cage area then heading up to the kick-back dead end in the distance.

A closer view of the chain sprocket, channel and supports under the tipple deck
Image

And a view from the other side showing the channel for the start of the uphill empties incline in front of the tipple deck before the chaim channel was plated over.
Image
There was an interesting vertical and sideways curve required in the track from the end of the diverge road at the kickback dead end points for the track to be flat at the start of the empties incline channel - but that's agnother story for agnother time....
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Postby Glen A » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:02 pm

Glad you are taking plenty of photos of the 'workings'.
They might be useful later to explain to people how it all works.

Are all the top covers and pieces removable, in case you need to make adjustments later?

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Postby Oztrainz » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:21 pm

Hi Glen & all
Yes the top covers over the chain paths are removeable. That has been another one of the things that we had to have worked out before we started laying the channels to carry the chain

With all 3 chains circulating freely now, the plan is that these covers will only come up for major faults/maintenance. We have also sorted out a way of threading the chains through the channels without having to lift the top covers.

The bare bones had a public outing about a fortnight back with the bottom end module (fully plated and tracked), incline module (2/3 plated and tracked/1/3 unplated with chains exposed) and top end module (unplated with no track and chains exposed) on display. The steep grade test rig and top end test rigs were also on display.
Unfortunately I forgot to get my camera out :cry:

Under manual control, we were able to lower skips individually for 2/3 of the length of the incline, pick them up individually on the tipple chain and take each skip to the dead-end kickback, hold it on the grade clear of the points, throw the points, drive the chain so that the magnet on the chain lost contact, and have the skip roll away under gravity to the bottom of the empties incline, from where it was towed to 2/3 of the way up the incline (end of track). :shock: I think that counts as a win for us.

We still have some issues which are just about sorted with the control board that will control the automatic sequencing for the bottom end.
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Postby Adrian » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:52 am

G'day John
Glad that the layout seems to be behaving itself :!:
And that you remembered to have the mechanics accessible.

We have also sorted out a way of threading the chains through the channels without having to lift the top covers.

I was actually thinking about how this could happen ____ then I thought "the chains have magnets !" :idea: :idea: :idea:
____ a magnet on the outside could drag the chain through its run easily :?: :?: :?:
Is this how you do it :?: :?: :?:

We still have some issues which are just about sorted
Life's like that.

Cheers
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Postby Oztrainz » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:30 am

Adrian wrote:
We have also sorted out a way of threading the chains through the channels without having to lift the top covers.

I was actually thinking about how this could happen ____ then I thought "the chains have magnets !" :idea: :idea: :idea:
____ a magnet on the outside could drag the chain through its run easily :?: :?: :?:
Is this how you do it :?: :?: :?:


Bingo :!: :!: Give that man a coconut :D

Feeding in from the unpowered end of each chain channel, feed in a link with a magnet first. With 2 of the larger magnets on the end of a stick above the track, drag the first link through the channel using the stick unitil you get to the motor sprocket, drop the chain onto the motor sprocket, then use the motor to pull the rest of the chain through until you have enough slack chain past the motor sprocket to clip the other end of the chain togther.
EASY!!! You just need to be a long armed octopus to pull it off successfully or have a couple of mates helping :wink:
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Postby Adrian » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:27 am

G'day guys

Glad you are taking plenty of photos of the 'workings'.
They might be useful later to explain to people how it all works.

Glen, just tell them 'its magic' !
And then let them ponder.

Bingo Give that man a coconut

I'll collect next Easter John, OK :?:

Although it sounds that having something like an engine hoist at each end of the layout allowing it to be inverted might make the process a little easier ??

Cheers
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Postby Oztrainz » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:38 pm

Hi all, just to show that the chain runs on the main inclines are working
http://youtu.be/Fw35hd23fjw
on a 1 in 4 grade :D :D
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