Self-Acting Haulage Lines.

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Oztrainz
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Postby Oztrainz » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:26 pm

Hi all
The video of the test is now up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7hH-qq-r1k
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Postby Glen A » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:18 pm

Good job John.

That magnet grabbed the bogie from a good distance away.
Glad you included the jaycar numbers in the post for reference later, (when I think of how I can apply this system :wink: )

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Postby Oztrainz » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:39 pm

Hi Glen,
:evil: :idea: Underground haulage to a different level with its own bogger and loco :?: After all you already have the shaft bottom level. Model a significant upthrow fault in your rock strata at the pit bottom but away from the shaft and go after the ore at a different level......

I really must stop making extra work for you at the Stamping Ground :wink:
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Postby Glen A » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:51 pm

Hi John,
Yeah, you posted a week too late.
I just finished hand laying track on another new module yesterday.
I made an oval, so it can run unattended (as it will be out of sight from the operator). But with your system I could have got away with just a piece of straight along the front.
Drat!

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Postby Adrian » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:05 am

G'day John
Loved the video....I am proud of you.
Just a thought. If you had two wagons with magnets on board do they attract each other ? Also do they interfer with whatever couplings you will be using ?
If not will the belt pick up first one and then the next with the next magnet ? Or is it a case of all or nothing with a string of little wagons climbing the incline together ?
Regarding the pickup area is it possible to extend the chain a bit further than the start of the actual incline and so bring the magnet up gently from below rather than quickly and so avoiding the 'snatching' that occures on the video ?
Good luck with your tests, they are doing you proud !
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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:15 am

Dear Adrian,

Prototype inclines with "axle hook" systems do give a very similar "jerk" as they engage, although not with the car actually rolling backward-then-forwards :wink:

I suspect the "jog" movement was due to the magnetic field shap around the chain magnet, notice how the angle of the magnet, relative to the bogie, changes as it rotates around the gear wheel???

Instead of "each car has a mating magnet", my personal gut instinct would be to space less magnets along the chain, and let the "head (magnet equipped) car drag a rake of maybe another 3-4 cars up coupled to it...

All in all, a great solution to a common MRR problem...
John G hits another Home Run... :D :D :D
Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
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Postby Oztrainz » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:17 am

Hi all.
For Corrimal, the ultimate aim is to have a a string of loose coupled trucks pushing down on a grade that will push 1 wagon onto a small flatter holding area where the next magnet on the chain will pick it up and tow it to the other end (be that other end at either the top or bottom of the incline. This should give several single wagons like these
Image
dotted along each incline track - hopefully :wink:

When the magnet cuts out , there will be a downhill run either into the tippler and screens at the bottom of the hill or into the "empties siding" at the top of the hill.

So far I've worked out the track arrangements at the top end, but the sketch needs a little more work to be visible here. I haven't worked out the track arrangements yet at the bottom of the hill...
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Postby Oztrainz » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:24 am

Hi all again,
you ought to see what happens when you get the magnets wrong :oops: :oops: :oops:
I have successfully "repelled" a wagon the length of the incline.....
It's gnot supposed to work like that.... :shock: :shock:
:arrow: Gnow to mark all the magnets so I get "THIS WAY UP" correct
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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:28 am

Dear John,

Don't speak quite soo fast, if you can get a smooth consistent "repel" propulsion, that may open up some slick trick options when it comes to "hill holders", "diverging routes", and "incline sorting yard" situations...

:twisted:
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Postby Oztrainz » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:47 am

Oztrainz wrote:So far I've worked out the track arrangements at the top end, but the sketch needs a little more work to be visible here. I haven't worked out the track arrangements yet at the bottom of the hill...


Hi all,
Here's the track plan for the top
Image
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Postby Adrian » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:52 am

G'day John
OK you've got the incline working......but what about the horse in the top right hand corner in the fulls dead end ?
If you thought that your forklifts were problematical just wait till you start on the horse.
I've seen a 'walking' man in 16mm scale but it took the builder about three years to get him to work and all he did (the little guy ) was push a wagon in one direction.
Cheers and best of luck
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Postby Oztrainz » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:24 am

Hi Adrian,
:twisted: :idea: the plan is to put the pit pony out to pasture - :shock:
ie have enough full wagons pushing on the down hill slope from the dead-end to push the next full car onto the take-up zone so it can be grabbed by the magnet under the track while the rope is continuously running between the wagon and the track above the track.

The part I really haven't got my head around yet is how to transfer a train of up to say 20 skips from the mine to the dead-end and have it magically uncouple into single wagons.....
and also how to magically couple a train of up to say 20 single empty skips in the Empites Siding for transport back to the mine as loco-hauled train. Let me know when you've worked it out....
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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:38 am

Dear John,

"Auto Coupling" is easy,
either Kadee #5s, or if they are too obvious,
MT couplers (Kadee N scale).

Even simple Hook and loop couplings would work :-)
(hooks of brass wire on one end,
hinged loops of brass or steel site on the other...
steel = opportunity for magnetic activation???)

As to uncoupling,

Assuming you go with Kadees,
plant a strategic clump of grass between the rails.
The idea is that this clump brushes up against the underside of the skips.

This retardation of movement should give enough "bunch up" slack for the couplers to "pop open" over an uncoupler.
(for those who have always found Kadee uncoupling tooo "spurious" and "hair trigger", here's the perfect situation for such behaviour1)

Combine with a slight downhill, and each skip should "run free" as it clears the clump, and then mm later clears the uncoupler...

Alternatively, if you go for a "hook and loop", a simple 'tween rails ramp should work???
Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

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Postby Adrian » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:35 am

G'day John
the plan is to put the pit pony out to pasture -

Really, really disappointed !
( By the way do you mean 'out to actual pasture' or 'out to the heavenly pasture' ? )

However looking at the operation of the 'Fulls'
Would it work if a full wagon leaves the mine entrance and using gravity runs into the 'Fulls deadend'.
The final setion of track takes an uphill rise.
The wagon slows to a stop after the point and then runs back downhill to the top of the'Fulls incline down'.
(The point is either a spring loaded or 'one way' type point.)
The full wagon then sits at the top of the incline waiting for the next magnet to start its journey down to the bottom.
This would mean that the wagons would come down the incline singly unless thay were stored between the point and the bridge before starting the downhill trek. ( I assume that they are to decend under control and not free rolling under gravity )

Regarding the points I have seen a layout by Gerry Hopkins that had alternative routes for different trains and NO moving parts on any of the points. Not sure how he did it but it worked without a hitch at a couple of exhibitions that I frequented. Spring points might cause too much friction for little skips.

Regardins the couplings I have three of Steves mine skips and have fitted them with hook and bar couplings of my own design.
As yet I have to test them under 'normal' operating conditions so I have no real idea if they will work in an exhibition envirionment.
Basically thay use a brass wire fixed at one end of the chassis and with a hook at the other. The point of the hook points skyward.
This hooks onto a simple wire which goes across the chassis beams ( which run the full length of the skip )
The brass wire has a piece of iron wire soldered to it which is pulled down by a electro/permanent magnet set between the rails.
However the couplings are single ended so they should work on my proposed layout but your layout reverses the skips and so any coupling would have to be double ended. Twice as much work.

I had to replace the supplied wheels and axles as they were steel and refused to leave the vicinity of the uncoupling magnet.

I have tested them on a length of track and around a fairly tight curve and they appear to work without problems. :lol:

Hoping that this will keep you occupied for a little while.

Cheers
Adrian Hoad

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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:51 am

Dear Adrian,

Try this

http://www.geocities.com/loggingloco1/dctramway

Inspired by Gerry's handlaid versions,
bodged using PECO insulfrogs,
proven working in HOn30 and On30...

A true "1 way turnout" with no moving parts is superiour when working with small hyper-light rollingstock, which simply will not reliably "push thru" a sprung turnout...
Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

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Postby Adrian » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:16 am

G'day Prof
Looked at your 'dctramway'.
Most impressed.
Uses my favorite layout plan from the old Peco plans book of many years ago.
You realise that you have just added to my list of layouts to do ?
Even with retirement, so little time and oh so many projects !
Cheers
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Postby Prof Klyzlr » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:42 am

Dear Adrian,

Oops, Sorry...

:twisted: :lol:
Happy Modelling,

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Prof Klyzlr

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Postby Adrian » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:53 am

G'day John

Just tried a lens stuck to the front of my camara with Bluetac and here are the results.

Image
First the hook for my coupler.
The thicker bit of wire is the iron wire. It should really have a tail to bring it closer to the rail tops.
The loop is to stop the hook wandering off too far to the sides.

Image
The 'loop' on the other end of the skip.
This is just slightly in from the ends of the chassis beam ends.
You can also just see where the hook is anchored.

Hoping that this makes my description slightly clearer.

Cheers
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Postby Adrian » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:59 am

G'day Prof
Oops, Sorry...

Don't worry Prof, I also have to decide if to build it in G, O, HO, N, Z or T.
And if it is to be narrow, standard or broad gauge.
Old , current or future time frame.
USA, Aussie, UK or continental.
As you can see......
Waaaaaaaaaaaay too many options....
Cheers
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Postby Oztrainz » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:42 pm

Thanks Adrian,
As far as the haul from the mine to the dead-end goes, this job will be done by an ex-Tasmanian Krauss (via South Africa) The mine had ex Taswegian H2 (BN 2589 of 1892) from 1906 onwards. With some minor changes in operating patterns, the pit ponies can be retired to graze peacefully in the meadows adjacent to the screens at the bottom of the incline :wink:

The Krauss will also get to haul the empties back to the mine.

Thanks for the photos of the couplings, I saw an even smaller rare earth magnet yesterday that might be useful as a replacement for the ferrite magnet under that wagon as will leave more room for couplings and stuff underneath the skips. As for couplings, the jury is still out. The ferrite magnet under the skip I am currently using fouls the between-the-track uncoupling magnet. This may or may not be a problem as the Gn15/On30 skips I am currently using on the test beds will not be the final version - It is a lot smaller

The next move is a double track trial version on the flat with the cables running mid-track and rollers between the rails. Stay tuned....
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Postby Adrian » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:25 am

G'day John

the pit ponies can be retired to graze peacefully in the meadows adjacent to the screens

Glad they are not to become dog meat.

Cheers
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Postby Adrian » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:33 am

G'day again John
Did you know that www.oatleyelectronics.com also have rare earth magnets down to 3mm dia x 1.5mm thick.
Just go to their site and enter 'magnets' into their search box.
Hope that this is of some help.
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Postby Oztrainz » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:02 pm

Hi all,
Thanks Adrian, their prices loook pretty good for the quantities I might need. I should be up that way early nexy week and I'll try and track them down then.

The single track magnetic-haul test bed shown in the video is no longer. :( :shock:

A new improved double track magnetic-haul test bed has just passed its first run. :D

The next move is to add the rope pulleys and then run the rope passes to simulate the up and down haulages.
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Postby Adrian » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:05 pm

G'day John
If you cannot find them they do a pretty quick mail order even to south of the border :lol:
Cheers
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Postby Oztrainz » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:23 am

Hi all
video of the newer double track test rig is now up here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR5XzueoE90

I'm still trying to get the rope part to work smoothly. More on this later
John Garaty
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