Binnie (or Hudson) Skips

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Binnie (or Hudson) Skips

Postby Blackcloud Railways » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:30 am

I have just bought three Binnie Engineering skips. The prototype skips came in many different sizes so the rubbergauging between their intended 16mm scale (2ft gauge) and a 10mm scale (roughly 3ft gauge) project that I have on the drawing board does not bother me.

Measuring them up before starting work on them I reckon the skip bodies to be about three feet wide for 1:24 scale. The wheels are meant to be set at 28mm back to back for use on O gauge but could easily be regauged for Gn15 if such a wide wagon would be OK on 15 inch gauge.

Has anyone used these for Gn15 and if so are they stable on OO gauge track?

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Postby Steve Bennett » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:46 am

Quick answer, yes they are reasonably stable, BUT the wheel flanges are too big and catch on the rail fixings with code 100 rail. They are also too big to go through a turnout. In addition, you need to be very careful getting the wheels centred on the axle.
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:53 pm

Thanks Steve, it was just idle curiosity as I'm currently banned from building any new layouts by SWMBO and the 10mm scale project, along with a US HO scale switching layout, are next up once the ban expires (after the arrival of sprog No.2) in January.

However, if/when the next Gn15 layout take shape perhaps using OO wheels drilled out to fit the kit's axles would be easier than turning down the 16mm scale wheels. Though with my pointless layouts there would be no problem with frog/wing rail clearances as long as I can find a way round the flange depths, the use of O scale (code 124) rail for instance.

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Postby John New » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:58 pm

Hi Bob.

Perhaps turnoutless would be a better word to use in this context than pointless. Pointless does have other connotations.
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Postby Chrisp » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:44 pm

I'm going to convert Binnie Hudson skips for my first Gn15 project. The plan is to use some of Steve's Pepper7 wheels, I'll let you know how it works out when I get them.
Have a gnice day.

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Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:53 pm

Bob, how about adapting old style Triang Hornby wheels, which had a wire axle through them. Still fitted to small rail crane so Hornby still making them.
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:30 pm

John New wrote:Perhaps turnoutless would be a better word to use in this context than pointless.

You've not seen one of my layouts then? Pointless actually describes them quite well, even when they have turnouts. :lol: :? :wink:

Chrisp wrote:I'll let you know how it works out when I get them.

Cheers, I'm thinking along the lines of another fishing line powered layout, possibly with a man scooting the wagon along with one foot on the chassis and the other hanging just above ground level, so the one wagon will probably be the entire rolling stock for the line just as with some small industrial tramways. But it will be some time in the future.

The Binnie kit looks to be very well designed and, at the price, they're even worth it just for the chassis to be built with a new body mounted in the same manner that the prototypes were sometimes used.

rue_d_etropal wrote:...how about adapting old style Triang Hornby wheels...


Thanks Simon. I'd not thought of that but it just so happens that I've got a ready supply of the old fashioned Tri-ang wheelsets which have been removed from the bogie hoppers and other wagons that I've rebuilt as On30 vehicles.

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Postby david colley jnr » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:50 am

Hey Bob, been looking at this thread, wondering why the name rings a bell, then I glanced to the left of the monitor and there it was. A Binnie Skip re-gaged to 15"! Pushing the wheels in on the axles seemed like the logical thing to do, and when the skip is in the upright position, it is fine. However, there is a stability issue that the lads in the workshop have been trying to fix, but the fact of the matter is that it's jut too big to work properly on 15" gauge... The chassis is 64mmx92mm, roughly four times the gauge and the height is 64mm, extending to 92mm when tipped.
I've just taken some photo's but the leads to hook up to the PC have disappeared
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:02 am

Ah, well. It was just a thought. Perhaps a larger scale would be better then. If I stick to O gauge track the scale for a 15 inch gauge line would be about 1/12, but with fishing line for propulsion I have no problems with motive power in odd gauges and could go for about 22mm gauge to get a scale of 1/18.

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Postby Steve Bennett » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:47 pm

Chrisp wrote:I'm going to convert Binnie Hudson skips for my first Gn15 project. The plan is to use some of Steve's Pepper7 wheels, I'll let you know how it works out when I get them.


It can be done, I used K&S brass rod for the axles and a short piece of tube inserted into the journals as bearings.
They are still pretty unstable due to the width and you need to be careful how you put anything on top, but with care, they are useable.
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Postby Steve Bennett » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:53 pm

bobblackcloud wrote:Ah, well. It was just a thought. Perhaps a larger scale would be better then. If I stick to O gauge track the scale for a 15 inch gauge line would be about 1/12, but with fishing line for propulsion I have no problems with motive power in odd gauges and could go for about 22mm gauge to get a scale of 1/18.


Stick with 1:12 Bob, it's the new Gn15 doncha Gnow :lol:

I recenty played with a Binnie skip chassis on a Tenshodo Spud for a 1:12th loco, but shelved it as it was too wide for the gauge. Perhaps I will put it back to 32mm gauge and have a try with your fishing line idea, been meaning to try that for ages :wink:
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:13 pm

While I am thinking more along the lines of a man powered wagon this does not have to be the case just because fishing line is being used. Really small locos can be built without the need to hide a mechanism in them. The problem lies with transferring stock from one line to another. An alternative might be to have the loco on a length of blackened piano wire so that it can be pushed out of a building and pulled back, this would enable it to change tracks while off stage as with your Gnine layout... :wink:
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Postby John New » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:19 pm

Thinking latterally as kids somewhere I used to play a game of table soccer that had a raised base (the pitch) used players with a metal disk in their bases manipulated from underneath by magnets on sticks. (Good old 1950s low technology) As an aside Subutteo then came along and had far better play value.

However if you had a metal disk under the loco and the magnet on a stick sliding within a grove below the track bed you should get the same effect as the piano wire but with it all hidden from view. Standard rectangular section electrical conduit would be quick and easy to mount for the slot.

Just a thought.
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Postby Chrisp » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:05 pm

Steve Bennett wrote:
Chrisp wrote:I'm going to convert Binnie Hudson skips for my first Gn15 project. The plan is to use some of Steve's Pepper7 wheels, I'll let you know how it works out when I get them.


It can be done, I used K&S brass rod for the axles and a short piece of tube inserted into the journals as bearings.
They are still pretty unstable due to the width and you need to be careful how you put anything on top, but with care, they are useable.


That's the approach I was thinking of - we'll see how it works out. If it is too wide/top heavy, I may just move the bucket and the brackets onto my own more slender chassis. I saw a great post on using rounded paper mache lids, may try that.
Have a gnice day.

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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:53 pm

John New wrote:.... if you had a metal disk under the loco and the magnet on a stick sliding within a grove below the track bed you should get the same effect as the piano wire but with it all hidden from view. Standard rectangular section electrical conduit would be quick and easy to mount for the slot.


I've tried magnets under the board before, using a OO gauge wagon chassis with a Kadee uncoupling magnet under it and another magnet below the board, but no matter how thin the board was I could not get it to work. Perhaps with the newer, much more powerful, neodymium magnets that are now readily available it would be worth revisiting this idea though. This would also stop the wagon tipping over when used with OO track, though it might still look too large for Gn15.
Image
The image above shows the skip on O gauge track.

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Postby Adrian » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:47 pm

G'day Bob

Magnets under the track can be made to work. Just view the thread "self-acting haulage lines" in the modelling matters section by Brod13.

Not sure if this is the way to give a link but try this........

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=5427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Just as an aside if you want track that is about 22mm gauge you realise that this is actually very close to S gauge ?

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Postby Oztrainz » Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:31 am

Hi Bob,
The magnets on a chain work provided:
1 - you have a smooth surface under the track for the magnet on the chain to skate along (I use 0.010" styrene superglued to the sleepers)
2 - the polarity of the magnet on the wagon is rigged so that it ATTRACTS the magnet on the chain (you have a 50/50 chance :wink: )
3 - you get the magnets as close to each other as you can without the magnet on the wagon fouling anything between the tracks (the inverse squre law applies here - double the distance apart between the magnets you get only 1/4 the attractive force)
4 - you can get the magnet stuck to a the chain link (best results with superglue so far)
5 - the teeth on the sprockets are filed down so that they don't protrude through the chain and push your magnets off the chain when the magnet link rolls around the sprocket (I learnt this one the hard way)

With a 10mm dia by 3mm thick rare earth magnet on both the chain and the wagon, so far I can:
haul and hold an On30 wagon on a 1 in 1 grade
or
have several wagons dotted along a 1 in 2 grade being hauled either up or down
or
move a train of 10 light 4-wheeled inside-framed skips that are fitted with axle in tube plain bearings on a 1 in 10 grade (one of these skips will just roll by itself on a 1 in 10 grade)

The wagon shudder in the videos can be prevented if the magnet on the wagon is placed between 1 and 3 sleeper spacings OUTSIDE of where the chain comes up on the sprocket. The wagons shown in the videos are very free rolling (built on needlepoint bearing HO bogies). More friction in the wagon will also help reduce the shudder
More testing continues....Maybe I out to copy all this to the self-acting incline thread as well?

So moving 1 wagon on the flat should not be too much of an issue.
Good luck and I look forward to seeing what you can come up with
John Garaty
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:15 am

Thanks for the info. Magnetic haulage looks promising. I've bookmarked the relevant links for future reference but it will be a while before I actually start work on a layout because of the SWMBO imposed ban that's in place at the moment. :roll:

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Postby ceejaydee » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:43 am

Excuse me if I missed it in the thread; but where did you manage to buy these wagons from?

I picked up one from a 16mm meet at Butterley some years ago but haven't managed to find any more since...

......must be looking in the wrong places :roll:
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:21 am

ceejaydee wrote:Excuse me if I missed it in the thread; but where did you manage to buy these wagons from?



Steve Warrington's garden railway supplies "Back2Bay6". Excellent service, they arrived within a couple of days of my ordering them on line though telephone ordering or personal shopping (located in Newport, Shropshire) are also available if preferred.

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Postby ceejaydee » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:10 pm

bobblackcloud wrote:
ceejaydee wrote:Excuse me if I missed it in the thread; but where did you manage to buy these wagons from?



Steve Warrington's garden railway supplies "Back2Bay6". Excellent service, they arrived within a couple of days of my ordering them on line though telephone ordering or personal shopping (located in Newport, Shropshire) are also available if preferred.


Thanks very much for that 8)
Cheers

Chris







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Postby Chrisp » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:51 pm

I finished my first Binnie GN15 gauge conversion - the stock frame is just too wide (and too light) so I made a replacement from 1/4" steel barstock (nice and heavy) and buffers cut from plastic and bolted together:

Image

I added journals from Ozark and some Sidelines holed wheelsets (remounted on 3/32" brass axles) - just need to weather it. The frame is heavy enough that you can tip the bin without pulling over the whole car.

Image

I may do a few more this way, or I may try adapting the paper mache box technique, which would be far easier if I can find the right size.
Have a gnice day.

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Postby foswaldy13 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:08 pm

Chrisp, the skip looks wonderful. I would build the rest of them the same way you did this one.
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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:45 pm

foswaldy13 wrote:Chrisp, the skip looks wonderful. I would build the rest of them the same way you did this one.


Ditto. A rake of near identical wagons always looks better than mismatched but similar vehicles. :D


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