1 to 1 Scale Real Water

For discussion of the issues faced when building a model or layout - how to replicate wood, what glues to use, exactly how much weathering can a Gnat take, a good source of detailing accessories - you get the picture, I'm sure.

Moderator: GnATTERbox Moderators

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

1 to 1 Scale Real Water

Postby DCRfan » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:19 am

I have been fiddling with my calculator and pencil again looking for a new layout concept.

The scene in this picture on the Waitakere Tramline struck me as a good focal point if real water was used running over the chute. I have a small water pump from one of those mini fountains to recirculate the water.
Image
Has anyone used real water on a layout? I would propose to base the scenery on expanded foam surfaced with plaster (sealed if necessary).

Apart from the obvious concern of mixing electrics with water I wonder if the evaporation would result in high humidity and dampness especially as I'm considering a covered presidum style presentation.

Paul Napier

NICKJW
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: essex
Interests: most modelling disciplines. Layouts exhibited: CWMOER, CWMDU & NANT-Y-GLO MINE

Postby NICKJW » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:37 am

Nice picture that.

Real water usually looks wrong when used in model landscapes because it appears to be out of scale. Also, if the water is static, say in a pond, it will collect dust and bits of flock which ruins the effect.

However, water actually running down that chute at a realistic speed may look quite convincing. It's worth a go.

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

Postby DCRfan » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:59 am

NICKJW wrote:Nice picture that.

Real water usually looks wrong when used in model landscapes because it appears to be out of scale. Also, if the water is static, say in a pond, it will collect dust and bits of flock which ruins the effect.

However, water actually running down that chute at a realistic speed may look quite convincing. It's worth a go.

I know saying water appears to be out of scale sounds silly but that was also one of my concerns. The waves and splashes on model ships in real water used in films generally look wrong.

In rain storms the white water positively roars of this chute. If I can just replicate that :D :D :D I have already considered including a running water sound chip to enhance the illusion. Along with a bird song chip 8)

Perhaps I'd better do a Myth Busters experiment :wink:

Paul Napier

NICKJW
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: essex
Interests: most modelling disciplines. Layouts exhibited: CWMOER, CWMDU & NANT-Y-GLO MINE

Postby NICKJW » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:40 am

Perhaps if you model a modest build up of 'algae' on the chute (using Milliput), it will help create a more rough flow of water instead of a steady stream? Maybe worth a go

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

Postby DCRfan » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:35 am

NICKJW wrote:Perhaps if you model a modest build up of 'algae' on the chute (using Milliput), it will help create a more rough flow of water instead of a steady stream? Maybe worth a go


Thank you sir. I have been trying to figure out how to breakup the water flow so its not just a mirror. I seem to remember the one time I peered up into the chute there were a few rocks working their way through that had been washed down from the stream above so I was thinking of gluing some in place but a subtle growth of algae would enable me to add roughness nicely.

Paul

User avatar
Gerry Bullock
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:07 pm
Location: S.E.Essex
Interests: Gn15 and O Gauge at Club.

Postby Gerry Bullock » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:22 pm

No experience of using the real stuff let alone modelling it ; however have heard discussions by experienced modellers and there is a two word answer - No Way. Wish you luck with the idea.
GerryB

User avatar
Steve Bennett
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 12:55 am
Location: Exeter, UK
Interests: railways?

Postby Steve Bennett » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:38 pm

Have to confess, I would have reservations about using real water aswell. Not only would there be to obvious problem of it effecting electrical contact, there is the scenery to consider too. I dont think that you would be able to seal plaster completely and any glue used to fix greenery in place is going to need to be completely waterproof too. Add to that the reservoir needed to hold the water and that clean-up at the end of an exhibition, no thanks :) I wish you luck if you do decide to go for it Paul.
Steve Bennett
Sidelines
http://www.pepper7.com

User avatar
michael
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1852
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Alberta Canada
Interests: Gn15

Postby michael » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:24 pm

It all sounds like a guantlet to me Paul, I say give it a try :lol:

regards Michael
Regards Michael
If you believe you can make something, you can make it.

http://users.xplornet.com/~macton/index.html

NICKJW
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: essex
Interests: most modelling disciplines. Layouts exhibited: CWMOER, CWMDU & NANT-Y-GLO MINE

Postby NICKJW » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:15 pm

If you are going to give it a go, here are a few tips that may prove helpful:

When mixing the plaster, add waterproof PVA/SEALANT. This will not only increase the strength of the plaster, but also help seal it. (Builders mix it with concrete for the same reason).

I would then coat the hardened plaster with another couple of layers and then a few coats of varnish. Finish off with a couple of coats of oil based paint.

Another method would be to use fiberglass/resin. There are a number of products on the market that should do the trick.

To remove the water at the end of a show, buy yourself a large syringe!

PS. A note on PVA/SEALANT:

You can buy it at B&Q for about a fiver for a couple of litres, much cheaper that Evostick or similar PVA products. I use it for everything from ballasting to sticking down flock.

Trainee
'boxer
'boxer
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:39 am
Location: Leesburg FL. USA
Interests: Beekeeping, Models, & small Engines

Postby Trainee » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:49 pm

:D It is quite posible to use real water in fact Model Railroader Magazine ran a series on an On3 project layout that had real water in April thru August 1991 The august issue has all the details about running real water.I hope this helps :D :D :D

Gerry Balding
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 5:57 pm
Location: Norwich, Norfolk UK
Interests: Narrow gauge railways, football, films, the works of James Ellroy. I am also the part owner of a 15" gauge 2-6-4 tank loco

Real Water

Postby Gerry Balding » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:30 pm

Hi Guys,

I have not (and would not) use real water. However, there was a British outline HO / HO9 layout at the Ipswich model railway exhibition last November that featured real water.

The main feature was a low girder bridge for the standard gauge line over a shallow, wide, river. The river bed was made from some form of resin. There was a pump at the back of the layout pumping water down the river and under the bridge. It was then collected in a tray and recycled.

The use of water on the HO9 quarry feeder line was just bizarre. The track ended in a flooded pit (often seen in real life). However, the operators insisted that the Roco 0-6-0t could run through the pit and out the other side. I asked for a demonstration and they duly obliged. The loco ran into the pit and promptly stalled, much to their embarrassment. Was I impressed? You bet!

I did take some pics of the layout (including the stranded Roco), but looking at them again you just can't tell it was real water. I failed to see the point apart from the novelty value which detracted from the layout as an exhibit.
Gerry Balding
Norwich
Norfolk
UK

User avatar
Gerry Bullock
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:07 pm
Location: S.E.Essex
Interests: Gn15 and O Gauge at Club.

Postby Gerry Bullock » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:20 pm

Just a thought, what does 'G' Scale "Real Water" look like :?
GerryB

User avatar
michael
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1852
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Alberta Canada
Interests: Gn15

Postby michael » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:31 pm

You could of course model a distillery and add a bit of scotch :!: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Michael
Regards Michael

If you believe you can make something, you can make it.



http://users.xplornet.com/~macton/index.html

User avatar
Christoph
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Germany, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Interests: Narrow gauge railways , sailing , music

Postby Christoph » Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:12 pm

Paul

On the exhibition at the end of June, where I participated with my DCR layout, it gave a Switzerland layout with 1:1 water .

Image

Image

Unfortunately I find only these two pictures of it :cry:

Christoph

PS. My small card loko
http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/653/5 ... _Pappe.jpg
and the policeman on the rail moped
http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/653/567Renner.jpg
(he looks somewhat diffuse , was too fast)
were also on the way in Switzerland . :wink:

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

Postby DCRfan » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:50 am

michael wrote:You could of course model a distillery and add a bit of scotch :!: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Michael


It is a mountain stream so scotch on the rocks, it of cource necessary to check the water quality periodically :wink: .

Paul

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

Postby DCRfan » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:03 am

michael wrote:It all sounds like a guantlet to me Paul, I say give it a try :lol:

regards Michael

Your dead right :lol: I'm off to the video store to hire Waterworld for inspiration which I can play alternatively with The Two foot Gauge Tramway video.

Thanks for all the ideas, suggestions and advice. I must admit it is just a bit of a gimic but why not :twisted:

But I really think a trial is in order to see if the pump can handle the proposed water lift and rate, what it actually looks like i.e. is it all worth it, if I can keep the water in the streambed and chute, and determine the durability and water proofness of proposed materials.

I'll let you know what happens but first a visit to the tramline is warranted (9 hour drive each way :cry: ) and oh we have a long weekend next week :shock:

Paul Napier

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

Postby DCRfan » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:09 am

NICKJW wrote:If you are going to give it a go, here are a few tips that may prove helpful:

When mixing the plaster, add waterproof PVA/SEALANT. This will not only increase the strength of the plaster, but also help seal it. (Builders mix it with concrete for the same reason).

I would then coat the hardened plaster with another couple of layers and then a few coats of varnish. Finish off with a couple of coats of oil based paint.

Another method would be to use fiberglass/resin. There are a number of products on the market that should do the trick.

To remove the water at the end of a show, buy yourself a large syringe!

PS. A note on PVA/SEALANT:

You can buy it at B&Q for about a fiver for a couple of litres, much cheaper that Evostick or similar PVA products. I use it for everything from ballasting to sticking down flock.


I'm not familiar with PVA/Sealant. Is that exactly what the product is called? What is it normally use for?

Thanks for the other suggestions. Already have a syringe or drain tap on the list of design requirements.

Paul Napier

User avatar
michael
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1852
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Alberta Canada
Interests: Gn15

Postby michael » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:41 am

Paul something just occured to me, you might try a wetting agent in the water to help break down the surface tension that happens to water in small places. perhaps vinegar or a photo wetting solution. it might make it look more real then. I know that sounds silly trying to make something real look more real, but you know what I mean.

regards Michael
Regards Michael

If you believe you can make something, you can make it.



http://users.xplornet.com/~macton/index.html

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

The tides on the turn

Postby DCRfan » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:22 am

As if my stream and water chute was not bad enough was about the tide that actually go's in and out.

http://www.uckfieldmrc.co.uk/memberslnf.html
:shock:
Paul

User avatar
AndyA
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 12:24 am
Location: Southampton, England
Interests: Railways, Folk music, food, travel
Andy died 14-Sep-2017 and will post no more. Travel well on your new guage.

Canal Locks?

Postby AndyA » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:08 am

I seem to remember a layout some time ago with a canal lock that filled and emptied and a (4mm) swan that swan around in circles. IIRC, the trick with the lock was achieved with a rubber tube and a tin full of water that moved up and down driven by a small motor.

Steve will no doubt have chapter and verse, RM articles and all. :)

regards
Andy A
Gn15: Gnot so much a scale, more a state of mind
gnine: less is the gnew more
GnTonic - enjoy irresponsibly

User avatar
Steve Bennett
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 12:55 am
Location: Exeter, UK
Interests: railways?

Re: Canal Locks?

Postby Steve Bennett » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:30 am

AndyA wrote:Steve will no doubt have chapter and verse, RM articles and all. :)


Better live upto my reputation I suppose :) That would have been Dave Rowe's Leighton Buzzard layout, based on the sand quarries at that location. I should know this one, Dave only lives a few miles away, but is not modelling these days as far as I know. He did write a book "Industrial and Mechanised Modelling" published by Wild Swan, which described the many animations he used on his layouts. Not sure if the book is still in print though.
Steve Bennett

Sidelines

http://www.pepper7.com

User avatar
Gerry Bullock
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 3220
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:07 pm
Location: S.E.Essex
Interests: Gn15 and O Gauge at Club.

Postby Gerry Bullock » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:15 am

Steve wrote
"Industrial and Mechanised Modelling" published by Wild Swan, which described the many animations he used on his layouts.

It's ISBN 0 906867 843 which I bought new about a year back and there is a section entitled "Movement Involving Real Water". The Canal Lock, Swan and Fisherman are featured in the book.
No further use for book if someone wants it contact me direct.
GerryB

User avatar
DCRfan
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1902
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 7:26 am
Location: Kiwi in Ottawa, Canada
Interests: Very narrow gauge, military & industrial railways

Postby DCRfan » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:08 am

I pulled appart one of the wife's small ordimental indoor fountains to check out the capability of the water pump.
Had to smile, printed on the side was the dire warning 'Don't Waterless operating'.

Intreging Babelfish translation but quite clear intent.

Paul

NICKJW
True GnATTERbox
True GnATTERbox
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:28 pm
Location: essex
Interests: most modelling disciplines. Layouts exhibited: CWMOER, CWMDU & NANT-Y-GLO MINE

Postby NICKJW » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:35 am

DCRfan wrote:
NICKJW wrote:If you are going to give it a go, here are a few tips that may prove helpful:

When mixing the plaster, add waterproof PVA/SEALANT. This will not only increase the strength of the plaster, but also help seal it. (Builders mix it with concrete for the same reason).

I would then coat the hardened plaster with another couple of layers and then a few coats of varnish. Finish off with a couple of coats of oil based paint.

Another method would be to use fiberglass/resin. There are a number of products on the market that should do the trick.

To remove the water at the end of a show, buy yourself a large syringe!

PS. A note on PVA/SEALANT:

You can buy it at B&Q for about a fiver for a couple of litres, much cheaper that Evostick or similar PVA products. I use it for everything from ballasting to sticking down flock.


I'm not familiar with PVA/Sealant. Is that exactly what the product is called? What is it normally use for?

Thanks for the other suggestions. Already have a syringe or drain tap on the list of design requirements.

Paul Napier



Hi Paul

The glue that I use is by a company called FEB and the product is called GENERAL PURPOSE PVA. It comes in 5 lites and I think it cost below £10 which is a real bargain when you consider how much a small pot by Evo-stick PVA cost! Not sure if the product is stocked in New Zealand but there are quite a few manufacturers that sell similar stuff. I would try builders merchants.

User avatar
Steve Bennett
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 4512
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 12:55 am
Location: Exeter, UK
Interests: railways?

Postby Steve Bennett » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:52 am

DCRfan wrote:I'm not familiar with PVA/Sealant. Is that exactly what the product is called? What is it normally use for?


PVA is short for Polyvinyl Acetate, and is the main ingredient in most white/woodworking glues and sealants for waterproofing plaster and stonework. The PVA term is used in the UK to collectively describe this family of glues, whereas in the US they use the term white glue, not sure what it would be in the lands downunder. Hope this helps.
Steve Bennett

Sidelines

http://www.pepper7.com


Return to “Modelling Matters”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests