First project

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kf4mat
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First project

Postby kf4mat » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:23 pm

Okay, I'm not what one would call good at track planing.... But I have doodled a plan for my proposed new project, actually it will be my first project (hopefully one of many).

Overall diminsions are 2'x4' and it will have a senic divider running across the diagonal allowing two 4 sq ft scenes. Side one will be the processing side and side two will be the raw materials side.

This is my first crude attempt at a track plan; please feel free to comment. Being a neophyte I won't be offended by telling me that the plan should be in the rubbish bin as long as you provide me with some sort of guidance on fixing the problems.

Image

Too explain, the basic plan would be a loop of track. On the processing side the main building occupies the right hand side and would have entrance for the loco and car(s) bringing in the raw materials. Also on this side would be a loco shed and perhaps a fueling point reached by the spur and switch back. Along the bottom would be some standard guage track to allow for a car to be spotted (permanetly) at the loading dock to haul the finished product away.

On the raw materials side the loco would travel to the mine with the empty cars, enter the mine and then make the return to the main building. As I am an electrician and not a miner I am not aware of how thigs would operate but I assume that they would have some provision to remove spoils from the mine so I also included a small spur off the entrance to allow for dumping unwanted material.

The fiddle yard would be concealed in the main building and mine complex with access from the right hand side. I suppose one could have two near identical locos and cars (one empty, one full) and provide a passing siding in the access area to prevent having to manually change cars.

Earlier I was pointed to some information on the Far Ings Tileries and I was leaning toward brick making. However I can't seem to wrap my head around how one would swap out the full car and empty car as the clay comes from a hole. The mine makes the swap easier, at least I think it does.
Last edited by kf4mat on Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Glen A » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:19 pm

Looks like you are off to a good start with your plan Tom.

I don't think you 'mine' clay from underground. It was usually just dug out of a quarry. But you could use that spur siding outside the tunnel for that. And just put a digger or steam shovel at the end of the siding, and dig the clay out of that bank (back scene).

That’s unless your brick works uses some special sort of clay that can only be found underground in that area :wink:

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Postby PeterH » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:27 pm

Tom: Nice plan.

I like how the track is not parallel with the edge of the base, and how the factory and mine are back-to-back. There is not too much track, but enough that you can have some fun. The switchback leading to the loco shed seems a bit complex for real life - they would just have one siding with the shed and fuel point on it. You could have two sidings here, one for the shed & one for parking unused wagons.

You might want to change from clay to something that is mined - mercury, gold, silver, lead and copper have all been mined by rail like this near here.

There have been some layouts like this on Carl Arendt's micro site. As you point out, just have two trains, one fulls and one empties,

The processing plant does not need to be too big, because the volume of ore coming in is not huge, which might leave room for some tanks and hoppers nearby. The plant and loco will probably need coal or diesel - more loads. There will be waste rock from the mine and the siding at the entrance probably needs to be longer to accommodate it. There might also be waste from the processing plant itself, because most of the ore that is mined is unwanted. This needs to be dumped somewhere, perhaps up the line near the mine entrance - more loads.
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Postby kf4mat » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:18 am

Glen and Peter Thank-you for the input!

We can scratch the brick plant then and until I think of something better I will just call it a processing building. :lol:

Peter,

Good call on the too complex track work. I guess my mind was trying to compenstate for not having a whole lot of track in the first place.

Time for the noob question "What is the difference between a siding and a spur?" Does a siding connect on both ends to the main?

I'm still new to model trains so my knowledge on realistic operations is not very good. Based on your response I assume then that most things the processing building would need then would be brought in on narrow gauge rail or would the have a standard guage industrial spur for such needs.

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Postby chris krupa » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:30 am

Clay mining:

http://www.pmmmg.org/Progress.htm

Actually this clay wasn't used for brick making but clay is mined.

I visited this site whilst it was still in commercial use. Unfortunately, I don't have access to my photos at the moment.

Chris

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Postby michael » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:48 am

Hi Tom, I agree that you are off to a good start. At the risk of being presumtious, since I had suggested a diagonal I thought that I would do an overlay that is scaled to 48 inches wide by 24 inches deep.
You mentioned a standard gauge line at the edge to be able to spot a wagon in the loading bay. I have drawn a pair of lines representing 2.5 inches apart which at 1/2 inch to the foot or 1/24th scale they would be 5 feet apart a bit wider that 4 foot 8 1/2 inches but closer to scale than your initial sketch.

You mentioned having a bit of a fiddle yard inside the building so I have included that with the difference being that there are two exits from the mine one for waste and one that would be your continuous loop. I have shaded the area that represents the side of the hill with the mine shafts green the flat area of the base is a tan colour and the building a redish brown. The diviter is red.

here are two images that you can print and play with that might help you sort out what you can put into the area when adding a standard gauge line as well because they are big.

Image

Image
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Postby Charlie Stewart » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:27 am

well I HAVE TO admit to liking Michael's trackplan..it is the same size and layout as my Barton Ings layout, except for the green spur (which as it happens I am about to add that spur along the back, just so I can have another train ready to use!!!) .... although the track seems too simple dont be tempted to complicate it as it gives a good balance between scenery and track on a 4' x2' baseboard AND it still is fun to operate ..it kept Bobblackcloud and myself entertained all day at Telford Narrow Gauge exhibition.........

Have Fun,

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Postby skylon » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:41 am

Charlie makes a good point. Less is often more in a small space.
Good work so far, looking forward to seeing this develop.
Thanks,
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Postby kf4mat » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:03 pm

Driff_Charlie wrote:well I HAVE TO admit to liking Michael's trackplan..it is the same size and layout as my Barton Ings layout, except for the green spur (which as it happens I am about to add that spur along the back, just so I can have another train ready to use!!!) ....
Charlie


Charlie,

Your layout is fantastic! I spent the morning browsing through all seven pages of that thread. The details you added really make the scene come to life such as the busted brick on the corner of the shed.

It also gives me a size perspective to work with. Not having worked with G scale your tilery shows me just how big my processing bld will look in comparison to the baseboard.

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Postby kf4mat » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:21 pm

michael wrote:Hi Tom, I agree that you are off to a good start. At the risk of being presumtious,
Image


Hello Michael,

Presumtious, not at all! I appreciate you taking the time to re-draw my plan; as a matter of fact yours makes more sense than mine. But then again that is how one learns... try it, ask for a critique, and learn from the response.

I've built the baseboard, though I need to pick up another piece of 1x3 pine to make a joist (stringer?) across the middle to stiffen and remove the slight bow from the 3/8" plywood top.

As for the actual modeling, well that will take me some time. For one I have no clue what I am doing, not that this has ever stopped me before, and two I've been unemployed for over a year now. The second one is the bigger problem but that too will pass.

One thing I need to research is how to make a standard guage and narrow guage crossing. I know there won't be an off the shelf diamond to plop in there. A thought here might be have the narrow guage run down an incline and cross underneath of the standard guage line.... any thoughts?

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Postby KeithB » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:29 pm

I know I've brought this one up before, but you could always model a mine for schist rock which is used as a decorative material - and here's the name for the layout: http://www.schist.co.nz/
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Postby Artizen » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:00 pm

I am currently building my Gn15 layout in a space of only 1200x400mm so a simple trackplan is all that fits. To be able to have a runaround I will extend the board at the ends and behind to allow for the track to create a loop. The extension boards are all demountable so I can fit the core layout into the back seat of my car to take to exhibitions. To keep costs down I am building all the brickwork from air drying clay suitably painted with house paint (small tester pots). The new building I am designing at the back will probably be built using a foamcore shell (scrap material for me) and the air dry bricks except this latest batch is curling badly as it dries. Essentially all I have room for (after building a water feature at the front) is a simple track running straight through the remaining space with two spur sidings for operational interest. The best thing I did was to buy a selection of 1:24 bits to give me some idea of scale - two Preiser figures, a Bedford OB kit, a couple of cheap IXO motorcycles, etc. I use these as place holders to gauge scale and sight lines. I am still waiting for my windows and doors to show up so I can actually start building - I want to be sure that the scale looks relevant and the holes for the windows are correct etc. Some things look right immediately such as MiniNatur ivy or small tufts and flowers and some things are gobsmacking huge such as 350mm high fir trees (which scale out at less than 30 feet). If in doubt, find the size of the real thing by researching on the net and draw up a simple box that represents the floor space it will need (such as trucks and cars and buildings) and see what fits.

BTW KeithB - names like the schist business are quite common in NZ. The country has a definite irreverent sense of humour!!!! Good find. :D
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Postby KeithB » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:03 am

Artizen wrote:BTW KeithB - names like the schist business are quite common in NZ. The country has a definite irreverent sense of humour!!!! Good find. :D


Ah - so the Politically Correct Police haven't got to your area yet! :lol:
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Postby michael » Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:54 am

Tom I am happy that you are OK with my mucking about with your Idea. regarding the crossing of standard and narrow gauge tracks I have always been rather fond of this one

Image

which follows along the lines of your comment about going under the track. If you did do that it would also accomplish the rather difficult transition to the "other side" The standard gauge side could have the track running along a section of elevated track and the divider could be a building flat. on the Mine side the line can be going into a tunnel.
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Postby DCRfan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:50 am

KeithB wrote:
Artizen wrote:Ah - so the Politically Correct Police haven't got to your area yet! :lol:


Don't you believe it :cry: In the NZ press today
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/national/4077158/Aryan1-licence-plate-all-about-love-not-hate

Dominion Post

To some "ARYAN1" is a clear message inciting racial hatred.

But to Upper Hutt mother Lisa Marie Thompson, it is nothing more than a personalised licence plate displaying the initial and surname of her former boyfriend - Andrew Ryan.

Ms Thompson was surprised when the inadvertent nod to Adolf Hitler's master race sparked a complaint to the Transport Agency from an offended motorist.

"This is really offensive, for pretty obvious reasons," the complainant wrote. "How can somebody even have a plate like this approved? I am baffled."

However, transport officials are refusing to have the plate withdrawn, saying it would breach Ms Thompson's rights – despite the obvious association of the "Aryan" with "white supremacism".

Ms Thompson, 32, of Birchville, is the registered owner of a 1993 Ford Falcon. She paid about $700 four years ago for the "ARYAN1" personalised plate. She and Mr Ryan are no longer together.

Asked why she chose a message that could be read as a tribute to the Nazi regime, which murdered millions in the Holocaust, Ms Thompson said: "Why did I do it? Because it's the name of my ex-boyfriend."

She had no intention of trading it in now she was aware of the significance of the word Aryan. "I'll look it up in the dictionary and see what it says, but I've had it for years and I don't see the problem with it. It would be no different to having `Maori Pride'.

"It doesn't really bother me."

Ms Thompson said she was not racist and had not received a complaint about the personalised plate before.

NZTA said white supremacism theories and beliefs – associated with the word "Aryan" – were considered offensive by many, but the Bill of Rights Act guaranteed people's right to express themselves. "On its own it is simply a name and I believe it would require some other words, actions or gestures to be inciting.

"NZTA finds racism and racist speech as abhorrent as all right-thinking New Zealanders [do], which is why this was not an easy decision to make. However, we consider that the original decision not to require the surrender of the plate was correct."

Wellington Regional Jewish Council chairman David Zwartz said the plate showed racial identification and probably expressed a belief in racial superiority. "But it isn't a direct threat to Jewish people."

PLATE DEBATE

Mass murder, obscenities, threats against the police and messages promoting drug use have all been declared off limits by the New Zealand Transport Agency.
Paul
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Postby rockershovel » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:51 pm

ball clay was mined underground at Hemerdon at one time; also Fuller's Earth in the Bath area
rambling miner

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Postby kf4mat » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:08 pm

michael wrote:Tom I am happy that you are OK with my mucking about with your Idea. regarding the crossing of standard and narrow gauge tracks I have always been rather fond of this one

Image

which follows along the lines of your comment about going under the track. If you did do that it would also accomplish the rather difficult transition to the "other side" The standard gauge side could have the track running along a section of elevated track and the divider could be a building flat. on the Mine side the line can be going into a tunnel.


Michael that is a great photo, which is giving me some ideas. One question though, how high is your retaining wall? A Civil Engineer I am not so you'll have to forgive my many questions. That photo has brought to mind that instead of climbing an incline the narrow guage line could just make its way into the lower level of the processing facility.

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Postby kf4mat » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:13 pm

rockershovel wrote:ball clay was mined underground at Hemerdon at one time; also Fuller's Earth in the Bath area


Amazing that a hobby can teach you so many things. Perhaps my facility could be a producer of clay pipes.

Ball Clay info

Some neat info on the railways that mined it there as well.

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Postby KEG » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:37 pm

You will need quite many Gn15 loads, to fill a single standard gauge car.


Image

This is only a 3-feet gauge 20 f. narrow gauge waggon. Standard gauge would be twice the seize.

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Postby michael » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:43 pm

Hi Tom
The model was based on this site, I still have to finish my model which has lain Idle for a few years now owing to other commitments,

http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/24/Berkhamstead.htm

Image
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Postby kf4mat » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:59 pm

KEG wrote:Image

This is only a 3-feet gauge 20 f. narrow gauge waggon. Standard gauge would be twice the seize.

Have Fun

Juergen


Juergen,

Nice photo, interesting collection of rolling stock you have. I have a 1:22.5 set of plans for a drop-bottom hopper waggon, which right now won't fit into my project as I have in mind. I think a box car would be better, just need to find the plans for it.

Until then I will make the hopper but I think I want to use the European style coupling method over the knuckle-style we use here. Just something else to research while I try to get things going.

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Postby kf4mat » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:07 pm

michael wrote:Hi Tom
The model was based on this site,

http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/24/Berkhamstead.htm



As I said above it is amazing at the things one learns from this site. I found some photos of horse drawn trains at the ball clay site I posted above too.

I just don't think about what kind of "horse power" they had to use back in the day. I'm used to going down to the tracks and seeing huge CSX unit trains and frieght running.

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Postby KEG » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:13 pm

Don´t worry about horsepower. Wait till you meet Elephant Power, some people use on their Gn15 track


Image


Sometimes it simply does not make sense, to fire up a loco, if you only want to haul a little load across the short line.

Have Fun

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Postby daddyharry » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:06 pm

Michael, I don`t want to look like a nit-picker, but the tracks are too close to the concrete wall. IIRC the distance should be something like one sleepers width.
I`m sorry for not showing some pictures to prove myself, but my kids just went to bed and my scanner is a bit noisy...

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Postby AndyA » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:19 am

daddyharry wrote:Michael, I don`t want to look like a nit-picker, but the tracks are too close to the concrete wall. IIRC the distance should be something like one sleepers width.


Whilst that may be a rule of thumb, industrial railways tend[ed] to fit the tracks in wherever they could. Certainly the 'kip' track on the Bowes railway (Gateshead), which we saw last week, has the sleepers right up to the edge of a ten-foot drop, and I'm sure I'll think of other examples just as soon as I press 'submit'. I have yet to back-up the camera card, but I'll post some pics when I do.

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