Hastings Model Possibilities

G scale on 9mm track? Are you mad? If so, this is the forum for you.

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Hastings Model Possibilities

Postby AndyA » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:55 am

Didn't take long

I was discussing the Hastings layout on the prototype thread at:

http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=1523&start=19

Well, I had the graphics open anyway, for processing photos for a Belgian potential client, so...

Here's a schematic of the layout at the east end of the railway. Clearly, the photo shows a 'Y' point, but I don't have a lot of time.

Image

The track of course isn't straight, but I'm pretty certain that the rail out of the shed once lined up. You could build it that way, or use the track to display a static loco.

George, if you're readingthis I promise that I will finish the third article for you, but I think I may have changed my mind.

We were going to build a version of Arue, being the (non-esitent) sea-wall terminus at Jaywick, but I pointed out elsewhere that figures in 1:35 are more readily available and somewhat cheaper. Figures being something at which I have had no success...

We were also going to run it using mixed traffic, the scenario being that goods for the holiday camp at the other end were loaded here, and wagons attached to the rear of the train, using two engines to run round, spot empties and loads, etc etc. This layout allows that, but also has the advantage that the loading/unloading can be by BHOG at the rear of the building.

It also has the advanyage that it could be built entirely of setrack. If I can find the link Catweasel posted, I'll print some off one day and have a go.

Leaving the shed road as static means that for htose who have problems with electrics, or like me with soldering, there are just two feeds and two breaks. (I can't work out whether you even need more to operate two locos and I don't have time at the moment, possibly it could be done without.)

I'll work up a Jaywick scenic version sometime, but for this end of hte Hastings line, all the buildings could be constructed from coffee stirrers.

I have too many unfinished projects at the moment, but we did promise ourselves that we'd build something to use up all the Jaywick research, and there are three days between Christmas and New Year. :)

Yes, a Jaywick Sentinel will narrow to 27mm without looking silly, yes the underframe would need a complete redesign, but no, it wouldn't look silly going backwards.

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Synchronicity?

Postby ian holmes » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:12 pm

Thanks Andy:
I might just have a use for such a track plan... :twisted:

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more thoughts

Postby AndyA » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:22 pm

I was thinking (always dangerous). First I thought 'silly boy, the Jaywick Sentinel doesn't need narrowing, you were thinking of gnine in 35mm, whereas the skeleton you have is Hn15. Oh goody'.

Then I thought 'but the Jaywick won't work because the driver has to sit in the middle'.

So then I thought 'how about a GVT trammer as built by Alan Keef (I prsume they don't but I pesume they would'. Still doesn't look silly going backwards (well, at least not as much as some. So, I took the drawing of Swee Pea, and did a rough and ready, raising the tank sides a bit and changing the cab to square it off.

Image

Then I remembered the Schneider at Pithiviers and figured that with a cab, it might look similar. So I widened it from 2'6" to 3'0, regauged it and shortened the cab and funnel from 5'4 to 5'0 (the driver was a bit taller than me and wasn't as cramped as the Jaywick driver looked).

Image

If I follow Ian's lead and put doors on, and cut the seated driver off at knee level, it'll fit over my gash 9mm 0-6-0. I really must find some 35mm figures soon. This gives me a 70mm loco length to work at for calculating everything else. Now to figure whether I want a turntable or not. I think not, but there's plenty time to think.

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Re: more thoughts

Postby ian holmes » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:30 pm

Oooh I do like that.
Very nicely proportioned.
I could see Keef (and Ian) building one of them... :D

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Postby Jim Snee » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:38 pm

Hi All

Whats this? A little box tank in Gnine?

I feel another printy comming on...

TTFN

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Postby AndyA » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:23 pm

Well, not a box-tank if it's to look GVT-ish, which I admit it doesn't at the moment, should have nice roundy bits rather than butt joints.

Can anyone else see my pictures? I seem to be being asked for a username and password, as if someone had put a .ht.. file on there without my knowledge.

I can get in with FTP, though, so if I've done it right,

Image

should point you at a composite showing how the thing would look pulling a Hastings coach.

Jim, if you want to do a printy, the dims are supposed to be 7'2" long by 3'0" wide by 5'0" above rail level. I was working in 1:35 (the seconnd one), the first one might work better for 1:24, and should be 7'2 by 5'4 by whatever the other bit is.

must try to work out what's wrong, now.

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Postby ian holmes » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:37 pm

I did have that problem Andy;
Everything looks fine now.
I'm currently sat here looking at 4 A4 (OK letter size paper as I'm in the US and A) pieces of paper laid end to end as a basis for a super small, transportable as hand luggage on an airplane, layout

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Postby AndyA » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:09 pm

Should be ample, Ian. I got an Arue clone with short Gn15 stock onto 3xA4 when Sue and I were playing after the Jaywick trip. :)

Using Setrack? if you have a Setrack solution, please post...

It's not quite, but almost, a Peek's Pike for gnine.

(hacker using a site in Israel to have a go at my firewall caused pipex's server to get - quite rightly - upset, apparently). Reminder to everyone on broadband of any kind, firewalls are not optional.

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Codename: Breakwater Point

Postby AndyA » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:25 am

'twas a particularly boring morris practice last night: they're working on some new dances and want only fragments of music so I get a minute's playing, a minute's rest, then have to be ready again as soon as asked. A friend has a tee-shirt with the standard symbols for Play - Stop - Rewind, and in letters underneath 'official morris practice musician'.

Anyway, I got some time to think about operating the layout. Let me add that this isn't all original thought from ninety minutes playing and forty minutes or so in the pub, hence the post title - Breakwater Point is the tentative name for our Jaywick project; the name of a cottage backing up to the sea wall on Meadow Way.

The original plan, using a version of Arue, was to run two-coach trains as standard, with up to three wagons attached to each train and three outgoing, the difficult bit being that the wagons need to be at the back of each train.

Here's the layout with the minimum of gaps inserted:

Image

However, this allows only one loco, so the 'wagons at the back' trick isn't possible (without a third track it needs two locos).

Sketching on the back of a piece of manuscript paper suggests that (as with Arue but in a different way) it's possible to run the following sequence:

outbound trucks are in top siding; train arrives with inbound trucks at rear, parks coaches at platform; inbound trucks are placed in lower siding; train leaves with outbound trucks at rear.

I deliberately haven't put in all the detail in case anyone wants to try it as a puzzle. I found two solutions (meaning of course that the puzzle isn't at its most devious yet) :twisted: and I think that my shortest is eight moves - haven't checked this morning. What should make it good for exhibitions is that the two locos have to co-operate.

(The back-story we devised is similar to that for Sutton Wharf - originally the track layout was simpler but when the operation changed no more space was available so buying a second loco was the only option.)

To make this work, I needed to add two more gaps:

Image

Of course, when the train is gone, you have a neat three-from five/six Inglenook whilst the spare loco prepares the new outbound trucks. This is possible with Arue, but makes more sense with this layout, with the added advantage that one can add a cassette to the top siding, so swapping coaches and wagons in and out.

For Ian's benefit, here are my calculations on layout length. The passing loop needs to hold two coaches or a loco and three wagons (these decisions, made for Breakwater, were not arbitrary). My GVT-ised Swee'Pea is 75mm long over couplers, so the obvious is that coaches are 150mm over couplers, wagons 75mm, giving a minimum layout length of 675mm plus three times the allowance for clearances at points. Bringing the coaches down to 100mm makes the wagons 45mm and the layout 475mm plus three point allowances.

This latter, for reasons of variety, was the approach we settled on for the Gn15 version, but the settrack radii will probably make the former look better.

Just for luck, in the pub, I proved that one can actually turn a three-coach train, and/or swap a coach in or out. If you've solved the first puzzle, this will either be obvious or not depending on which solution you found. (Natch, I found the solution that doesn't make it obvious first).

Given that there's a real excuse for the Inglenook in sorting wagons into the 'correct' drop order, and the passenger running is pretty protypical, I think this has a lot of potential. And since there are at least two soutions to the two-coach problem, there's at east one trick I haven't found yet.

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Postby AndyA » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:36 am

Just re-posting Catweasel's link from Miniature track to avoid anyone else needing to search...

http://www.sodigi.com/Peco_Track.htm

and add a mockup made with the short turnout templates from this page.

Image

it comes out to something like 975mm long, but some jiggling could make it smaller. If my arithmetic is right, it allows for loco=75mm, coach=120mm, wagon=55mm. I think I have the clearances correct for 27mm, probably the only way to find out is to build one.

Those working only in Gn15 but reading this anyway may be interested to know that this is almost exactly the same minimum length as for Arue in Gn15, but our exit road is built in whereas we'd have used an extension track.

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Postby ian holmes » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:35 pm

Hmmm....
4 A4 sheets of paper laid end to end is as good as 1000mm... :)


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Postby AndyA » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:40 am

note that it's only about 90mm wide including an allowance for the clearances for 27mm stock. Following Gerry's thoughts about exhibiting, that allows a lot of space for scenery and other gubbins (thoughts from the Hastings setting include a bar or yacht club on the upper floor of the building the trains run under, a jellied eel and shellfish shop in one of the buildings behind, boats and vehicles on the road/beach in front) so that the trains run through the scenery rather than in front of it.

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910mm

Postby AndyA » Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:20 am

Ian, I treated myself yesterday and went down to the model shop to get some track. We don't intend to actually build the thing until Christmas, but there's a lot of thinking to be done and after trying to make Gnordlys work and it all coming unravelled, I thought checking sizes in advance might be a good idea.

Image

The very nice man at Footplate (02380 771546), our model railway shop, was happy to let me lay Peco Setrack out all over the counter, which was really the only way to make sure I'd used the templates correctly. Fair play to him and if anyone's ever in the area, apart from meeting up anyway the shop is worth a visit.

As built, it's 910mm end to end.

What you see there is three left- and one right- hand no 1 points, a headshunt of one standard straight, the loop is one double and one standard straight, the rest of the length being a short curve at the headshunt end. The sidings are one sstandard straight or short curve and one double straight. In retrospect I'll go and buy one more short straight, so that all three tracks are the same length (840mm for Ian's sake), placing three double straights on a second board so the train can run right through the shed and maybe hide behind some chalets or something.

Note that the intention is to work in 1:35, so anyone working in half-inch might want to add a bit to the run-around, or use four-wheel coaches. I checked the clearances at 27mm and as a result I'm going to make the loco (now dubbed 'Oak') very slightly narrower to exactly match Steve's Tops wagons. This just eases the run-around slightly since at the moment the loco fouls the entire length of the short curve running round.

I think that's all for now.

regards
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Postby Simon Moore » Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:32 am

This is looking really good! I love the loco design and the simple but efective track plan, a well thought out venture all round Andy, I can't wait to see more :D

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Postby michael » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:50 pm

It is just this sort of planning and thinking that has influenced my reworking of things at Macton, I am enjoying the development of this layout Andy.

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Postby AndyA » Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:00 pm

What I think Michael means is that this one has been thought out in advance. :) I've been looking at mixed passenger/freight operation for a while - I think the impetus to write anything up must have been on our annual group narrow-boat trip in early April, after I'd seen the CM article on the Stubaitalbahn and was at a loose end between steering and cooking. I came up with a Gn15 Vicinal. Then I think we went to Pagham and were discussing a feeder from Pagham to Sidlesham Quay to link with the Selsey Tram.

After the visit to Jaywick we had a working plan and in the course of discussion Jack T very kindly mailed me about he Fred Lagerway's Arue layout. By the time we got back from Jaywick a basic operating premise had developed that worked on Arue. Ironically, Arue was built in 1:35 scale but with much fiddling we had a system where two locos could cooperate to turn a train, removing wagons from one end and attaching fresh ones to what would be the rear of the outgoing. It (just) fitted onto three sheets of A4. I'll dig these write-ups out at some point and post them on my site.

Hastings was therefore a catalyst. Once we'd seen Swee Pea running backwards, I reckoned that the Sentinel would look quite natural. I verified that all of the original operations could be performed, and more,

for reasons already documented, the loco turned into a 'keef-ised' GVT tram. There will be two - 'oak' and 'holly' because in operation they swap over like the two Celtic kings of the year, heading alternate trains.

Image

with apologies for the fact that you can see the joins, some panels are clearly hacked, no dome or smokebox etc etc, and for the poor depth of field and vicious colour cast, above is a newly hacked version of the one from this morning, posed next to Steve's short Tops wagon. There isn't too much of a mismatch. With the short wagons and using four-wheel coaches, this layout could be significantly smaller, which must mean that it will be fairly small in Gn15 as well, but I'm not going there for now.

Now to find a suitable chassis, figure out how to make the real thing without it looking too awful, and work out whether funds permiy fitting two more DCC chips, involving less soldering than putting in the (now six and probably growing) feeds we need.

(Don't let this put anyone off - for simple operation you still just need the two feeds and two breaks)

But it does, all-in-all look like a goer. Not surprising, I guess, because the real thing needs to fit all this type of operation into a confined space as well.

Anyone fancy building one of these layouts over the next couple of months to get the assembly bugs out of it before I have to?

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Postby ian holmes » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:41 pm

Don't fancy building one of the layouts but I certainly fancy building one of the GVT style trams though. :)
It seems like you have the layout pretty well ironed out. More so that I do with any of my layouts I'm ashamed to say. I'm always more driven by the scenic development rather than the trackplan and operations. Perhaps I should be learning something from your approach to this.

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basic approach to Oak

Postby AndyA » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:56 pm

Thanks to everyone who helped. What follows may not seem like much reward, but I'm getting there.

Image

Okay, all you can see are the dome and a rolled paper funnel, and perhaps I should have waited for the glue to dry, but what happened was this:

I looked at Steve's rather wonderful model, then went away and tried to draw the top. Bear in mind that I'm building a Keef rather than a GVT. Mchael very kindly sent some drawings that I could mess around with and Jim had a sort of idea for the radius (on the front - I decided all round was too fiddly). Then I took the itmes I'd remembered from Steve's photo, together with Michael's drawing of the top, deleted the bits that didn't stand out and then scaled it to fit the recess on mine.

Jim's idea for the radius intrigued me: the tank inset and the cab are built as two sub-assemblies and I already had a wrapper round them to hold them together. But it went all the way round, which is why you can see the join in version 1 above. If I make the (probably rash) assumption that Keef wouldn't bother with a radius on the cab rear, I can run the wrapper round the sides and front, providing the lip I need and concealing the joins by them being the ends of the cab sides. I didn't score the folds in the card, just glued it on, which results in a reasonable radius - then I added another layer of lightweight paper for good measure. The radius looks good to the eye but it would come over better in the photo if I'd deleted the vertical lines before cutting the last layer (and if I hadn't used my daylight buld which casts a serious shadow).

The 'dome' is obviously too large and the funnel, whilst the right diameter, also needs to be thinner, to give the right caricature look I'm after. Thus I didn't bother putting the boxes in. I'm way out of time, but the detail on the top when I make the next prototype will be: funnel; domw with mock safety valves; two boxes and the pair of either handrails or pipes, which will obviously be handrails on the Keef version. I'll put the (?hydraulic) filler where it should be, but I'm going to assume that the fuel filler in in the front box, since I cant think of anywhere else to put it and I can't see Keef moving the filler just for an order run of two.

I can't decide whether to go ahead and make them out of card: I think it might be fun. Anyway, my turn to cook, so g'night all.

regards
Andy A
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Postby AndyA » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 am

Went back to Footplate on Friday, just before departing for the weekend, got one more short and one more double straight.

I took in a copy of the thread: recommended to anyone going shopping because the publicity for Gnatterbox can't hurt.

This part of the layout:

Image

is 810mm long and the four 'left-over' straights will make a 690mm extension, which has to hold loco, two coaches and three wagons, or loco, three coaches and one wagon, giving me the final (albeit arbitrary) dimensions for the stock. The overhead photo will allow me to draw diagrams for the shunting puzzles on my laptop, making sure that everything really does work.

George's 'roofline' has catalysed the look and feel of the scenery: the aim is to produce something that's recognisably seaside but the slight rough-and-tumble of amusement arcades, eel-and pie shopa and probably a pre-fab pub, rather than the sedate look of 'Shifting Sands', much though I love it.

Now I need to think about best practice for construction of two 250-300mm wide baseboards, one 810m long and one 690mm. They need to be robust and light enough to sling into the Fiesta, yet link together precisely. Any suggestions, folks. (Oh yes, and they need to be able to be constructed by a bodger in about a day).

Oh and couplings. Perhaps we could have a separate thread and keep it all neat and tidy. On second thoughts, that might not be in keeping with the spirit of Gnatterbox. :) But it is something I need to think about well in advance, because we'll need auto-coupling and prsumably magnets.

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Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:34 pm

I tend to use split hinges to locate boards together. Take a hinge of suitable size, drive out hinge pin and replace with a nail or length of bar of suitable diameter to slide in and out with minimal 'slop' and long enough to create a handle. Put hinge back together with new pin, assemble/clamp boards together, screw required number of hinges across joint. To seperate, remove pin, to assemble, put boards together and inset pin. :D

Hinges can be expensive if you require quite a few, so I've used piano hinge strip in the past, cut to the length you require and drill additional holes as needed. :D
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Postby Colin Peake » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:29 pm

AndyA wrote:George's 'roofline' has catalysed the look and feel of the scenery: the aim is to produce something that's recognisably seaside but the slight rough-and-tumble of amusement arcades, eel-and pie shopa and probably a pre-fab pub, rather than the sedate look of 'Shifting Sands', much though I love it.


Sounds good to me :) I imagine the other end of the Somerthorpe Miniature Railway is very different to the Shifting Sands end, close to the end of the promenade, arcades, chippys etc. Doubt I'll ever have the space to build it!!

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Postby michael » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:31 pm

Andy, Corrugated card over a bit of pink foam glued together with butchers tape around the edges.

Dowels sticking out of one and into some tubes in t'other, with cross dowels sticking out about 1/2" at the join use rubber bands to keep them together.

In fact I think I'll try this method m'self. :)

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Postby Steve Bennett » Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:06 pm

A few pics of Hastings MR dating from the 1980's here
http://johnlawontherails.fotopic.net/c841282.html
Thought they might be of interest, about midway down the page.
Steve Bennett
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AndyA
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Postby AndyA » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:22 am

Thanks for that, Steve. The mystery of the old track-plan is thus solved, though I'm glad I didn't see it before designing Breakwater Point because it would all have got incredibly more complex. Now, of course, I'd give my eye-teeth for a period shot of the east terminus looking west, so I've cheekily emailed him and will let you know what happens.

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Andy A
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Re: Hastings Model Possibilities

Postby MilesB » Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:35 pm

AndyA wrote:I was discussing the Hastings layout on the prototype thread at:
http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=1523&start=19

Well, I had the graphics open anyway, for processing photos for a Belgian potential client, so...

Here's a schematic of the layout at the east end of the railway. Clearly, the photo shows a 'Y' point, but I don't have a lot of time.

Image

The track of course isn't straight, but I'm pretty certain that the rail out of the shed once lined up. You could build it that way, or use the track to display a static loco...
regards
Andy A

Andy

This thread had gone all quiet, but I was out on a run on my bike today, so I thought I'd run down to Hastings and have a look at the real thing.

The line is easy to find - motorbike parking less so, but once settled I headed off. Digital camera in hand, 'Oh look, here comes the train' attempt to take photo - instead of the shutter noise I get nothing - the camera has shut down due to low battery. Aaaargh!

Anyway, I had a look at the eastern terminus, comparing it with your sketch track plan above, and two things struck me:
1) The locomotive shed opposite the platform was once again rail connected.
2) The crossover between the main line and the loop/sidings was the other way around to the way you have drawn it.

For reference, have a look at this picture of the terminus as it was
http://johnlawontherails.fotopic.net/p37241647.html
1) Point for the loco shed siding comes off of the loop where the loop curves to the right at the water crane (a 'right hand' point is used).
2) The crossover is visible on the right, and is still in this position/alignment. This being the case, was it ever the way you drew it?

Whilst I appreciate you are designing your layout (and hence rule 1 applies) I wasn't sure if your sketch was wrong or not.

Miles


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