North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

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North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:44 am

For the past while I have been (for my own interest) going through the Degolyer Collection of Baldwin Locomotive Works Specification Records and several other North American locomotive manufacturer records I have access to, looking for locomotives built in North America to any of the various "minimum gauges". Quite a bit of interesting information has turned up, and I thought I would share it here for those people with an interest. I would be very glad to see information added to this topic if you have any additions or corrections. Please note the Degolyer records are limited primarily to steam locomotives. While the first few years of compressed air and electric locomotive production were included in these records, a few years after each type started in production they were switched to separate record books which are not digitized. Please note as well that I cannot claim to hav found all of the minimum gauge locomotives in these records. The microfilms are in terrible shape in some volumes and unreadable in some cases.

The first patterns I noted were the gauges, especially those found in the Baldwin records, which for those people who haven't seen them are extremely detailed. Out of interest, it may be interesting to note that many of the railroads we call "standard gauge" were anything but, even with construction post-1900. "Standard Gauge" apparently could mean 4' 8", 4' 8.25", 4' 8.5", 4' 8.75", 4' 9" (very common), 4' 9.5" and even 4' 10". With the "play" specified for these gauges, they all interoperated. From this I think we can all take heart in the fact that 16.5mm may not be exactly 15", or 9mm in my case since I model O9. If the real railroads could have that much variance, well, I can too!

Minimum gauges as manufactured in North America could be either Metric or Imperial gauges. Between the Baldwin and Porter records, and regarding anything less than 60cm (23.625") as minimum gauge, I found the following gauges: 450mm, 18", 470mm, 500mm, 20", 520mm, 525mm, 21", 21.5" (Outside Flange), 22", 575mm and 23".

The 450mm, 470mm, 520mm and 525mm gauge locomotives, all built by Porter, were apparently for European railways, and all were four-wheel Compressed Air locomotives.

Every one of the 500mm gauge and 575mm gauge locomotives were built for service in foreign countries, or (in the case of Puerto Rico) a region that had been foreign when railways were first introduced.

All of the other locomotives, save one (produced for an American company) operated within the USA, Canada or Mexico, or the Sandwich Islands (later Hawaii).

For those who are not familiar with the system, the 21.5" Outside Flange gauge is an industrial system patented and manufactured by the C.W. Hunt Company. Catalogues of their equipment can be found online at:

http://www.narrowgaugechaos.com/RPC/Material/IndustRREquip/CWHunt/CWHuntIndex.htm

Locomotives in this gauge were manufactured by Baldwin (Electric and Battery-Electric designs for the Stanley Works and the Electric Storage Battery Company, respectively, and three small class 4-6C 0-4-0T steam locomotives for the Bridgeport Malleable Iron Company (2) and Buffalo Bolt Company) and by Porter (six 0-4-0ST locomotives of similar design all for the Baltimore Copper Smelting and Rolling Company). C.W. Hunt also manufactured electric locomotives of their own design, for which a catalog can be found at the above link. I would be interested to hear of other manufacturers for this unusual gauge; I am aware that Koppel produced cars in this gauge and style that may have been re-branded C.W. Hunt units (they appear identical).

In order to keep this post reasonably short, I am going to post follow-ups with information for the other gauges.

I hope some of you find this information interesting.
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:00 am

Continuing with the gauges, we come to the narrower gauges, 18" and 500mm.

18" gauge, as produced by Baldwin and Porter, was almost exclusively the province of Compressed Air, Battery Electric or Overhead Electric locomotives. I could only find one record of a steam locomotive produced be either manufacturer in this gauge, a single tiny 0-4-0 locomotive with a tender produced for the United Fruit Company by Porter. Otherwise Porter produced 50 small compressed air locomotives, mostly 0-4-0 models for various hard-rock mining concerns including 32 for the Homestake Mining Company in South Dakota. Six were manufactured for smelting companies (and may very well have been used in associated mines), while two, coincidentally the only two 0-4-2 compressed air locomotives, were manufactured for a construction company that built many mainline railroad tunnels in my home province of British Columbia, Canada. Baldwin built several early electric locomotives (before the records were entered separately) for 18" gauge including two for the smelter works at Trail, British Columbia and one for Utah's Argo Tunnel, seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ArgoTunnel1910.jpg#mediaviewer/File:ArgoTunnel1910.jpg

500mm gauge is much more interesting, and includes compressed air locomotives from Porter and Electric locomotives from Baldwin. More interestingly, however, are two locomotive classes from Baldwin. One class, the 6-6-1/3C, seems to have been produced exclusively in 500mm gauge for a pair of sugar mills in Puerto Rico, while three identical locomotives in the 6-8D class were built for one railway in Peru (possibly a construction company).

The 6-6-1/3C class is a very small 0-4-2ST (Saddle Tank) Forney-type locomotive (Baldwin classed both 0-4-2 and 0-4-4 locomotives as "Forneys" if they were built along Mattias Forney's designs, not just the 0-4-4 design). With 24" drivers on a 36" wheelbase and 18" trailing wheels at a total wheelbase of 7'9", this locomotive is almost the perfect size for Gn15 or O9. Baldwin Works drawings for this class can be found at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knepp736/sets/72157623611160154/

The locomotives operated at the Centrale Coloso and Carmen Central Sugar Mills. The Carmen Central also operated the only minimum gauge Shay locomotive as well as a Davenport Gas-Mechanical ca. 1945. The Centrale Coloso operated three of these steam locomotives which were later replaced by seven gasoline and diesel mechanical locomotives, including a Baldwin 55HP unit ca. 1919, three 1930's era Whitcombs (a 1931 Model WVK, a 1935 6DM-1A and a 1937 7DM-4), a Davenport ca. 1948, a 55HP Milwaukee of unknown vintage and possibly another of unknown make and vintage.

The second class is a small 0-6-0T, this time with 22" drivers on a total wheelbase of 4' 10". With small rectangular side tanks and a steel canopy over a wooden half-cab, these locomotives must have been quite good looking. All three were built for a single railroad, listed variously in the Baldwin records as "Monte Rico Grande Compania", "Pedro Martinto" and "Monterro Grande Compania". The likely name is probably "Montero Grande Compania". Pedro Martinto appears to have been an importer that went out of business in the early 1920's.
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:43 am

Moving on to 20" gauge, we come to some interesting stories.

Most followers of American Minimum Gauge are aware of the famous Arizona "baby gauge Porters". How many people, however, realize that there 16 locomotives built by Porter for various hard-rock mining operations in Arizona and Sonora Province in Mexico, plus one logging company in Colorado? Or that Porter also built five 0-4-0 tender locomotives, one for a mining company (head office in New York), one for a construction company (in Colorado) and three for plumbing manufacturers in Connecticut?

In any case, one 0-4-2ST, four 0-4-4ST and ten 0-4-0ST Porter locomotives operated with either the Arizona Copper Company or the Detroit Copper Mining Company, or their various predecessors or subsidiaries, and many have been saved. The logging engine in Colorado (Caribou Pacific Lumber Company) and the Contractor engine (M.H. Keefe) were probably both operated by the same company for the same purpose: building the Busk-Ivanhoe Tunnel for the Colorado Midland Railway. In any case the locomotives were purchased in that timeframe and M.H. Keefe was the prime contractor for the project (and since they were headquartered in Montana, it is unlikely they were for anything else). The logging company locomotive later became the #1 locomotive for the Ferrocarril Mineral de Santo Nino in Sonora, Mexico, who later bought two more Porter locomotives, each larger than the last.

Baldwin, on the other hand, produced fewer 20" gauge locomotives, but they had an interesting history. One class 4-10-1/2C 0-4-0ST (the "1/2" referred to a special design - in this case restricted dimensions for underground operation) operated for the Bald Mountain Gold Mining Company:

http://www.westernmininghistory.com/articles/210/page1/

More interesting to many, especially those people from England, would be the four locomotives produced for the Sandwich Islands (Hawaii). Prior to American interests gaining an overwhelming control of the governance of the islands in the late 1880's and early 1890's, one of the pre-eminent suppliers of railway equipment to the islands was John Fowler & Co. of Leeds, UK. Most of the railways established by Fowler in the Sandwich Islands were of more "normal" gauge (24", 30" and 36"), but at least three railways were established to Fowler's minimum practicable locomotive-operated gauge of 20". J.C. Conde's "Fowler Locomotives in the Kingdom of Hawaii" does an excellent job of detailing two of these three railways, namely the Heeia Agricultural Company and the Hana Plantation Company. Another apparent user was the Kukaiau Plantation, which apparently operated their railway by animal power until 1916.

The Hana Plantation operated a Fowler 0-4-2T Patent Indirect Drive locomotive from the establishment of the railway in 1883 until at least the arrival of the first Baldwin locomotive in 1888. The second Baldwin locomotive arrived in 1891. Both locomotives were class 6-8-1/3C 0-4-2RT Forney type locomotives.

The Heeia Agricultural Company purchased a Fowler Patent Indirect Drive locomotive in 1883, followed by a Baldwin 6-8-1/3C identical to the Hana plantation locomotive in 1889.

Plans for all three locomotives (they were all built from the same drawings) can be seen at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knepp736/sets/72157623611137382/

All three locomotives were apparently converted to 36" in 1917.

The Kukaiau Plantation, a relative latecomer to the locomotive market, depended primarily on cableways and flumes to bring their sugar cane to the mill. Their railway was short and essentially connected several cableway terminus to the mill. In 1916 they purchased a Baldwin 6-8-1/3C locomotive and used it for a single season in an attempt to realize some economies of scale before the mill closed in 1917, when the locomotive was apparently converted to 30" or 36" gauge and sold to Taiwan. Plans for this locomotive can be seen at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knepp736/sets/72157623611236546/

and an image can be seen at:

http://rrmuseumpa.andornot.com/archives/permalink/5446/

As an aside, in some photos of the Hana Plantation, Fowler two-truck flatcars can be seen in operation with stake sides to hold sugar cane or without stake sides while carrying track segments. It is also possible to see, in one photo, a very early Z.T. Earle design cane car. Photos of the Hana Plantation, on the other hand, show Fowler "Puerto Rico Style" two-axle cane cars in service.
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:10 am

Another interesting gauge is 22" gauge, which saw some use in the surface workings of the mining industry. Homestake Mining of South Dakota operated two Baldwin class 4-8C 0-4-0ST locomotives and four Porter 0-4-0 compressed air locomotives in this gauge. One further Baldwin 4-8C was operated by the Highland Mining Company (related to Homestake) while a Porter 0-4-0ST was used to construct the Comstock Tunnel (later sold to El Progreso Mining in Mexico) and an 0-4-0 was used by the Consolidated Kansas City Smelting & Refining Company.

21" gauge was used for two Baldwin electric locomotives used by the Camp Bird Mine in Colorado.

The unusual gauge of 23" was used by two steel manufacturers in Pennsylvania and Ohio (Jones & Laughlin and Otis Steel) and two mining companies in Missouri and Minnesota. Jones & Laughlin operated 32 0-4-0 locomotives, ranging from 8-ton 0-4-0ST locomotives to a series of six 46.5-ton 0-4-0ST locomotives. Otis Steel operated nine locomotives, three of which were 0-4-0ST, one 0-4-0T and five 0-4-0. The Commonwealth Iron Company operated an 0-4-0 compressed air locomotive and a small 0-4-0ST in Missouri, while the Oliver Iron Mining Company operated a single 0-4-0 in Minnesota.

One railway in the Dominican Republic operated a two railway, one with the much more common gauge of 30" and one with the unusual minimum gauge of 575mm. The Italia Estates Plantations (a.k.a. Porcella Vicini) operated an extensive 575mm gauge system, with at least the following locomotives:

- Four Baldwin class 6-8-1/3C 0-4-2RT Forney-type locomotives. Drawings to be seen at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knepp736/sets/72157623611249352/

- One Baldwin class 6-10C 2-4-0 locomotive with a 500 gallon 4-wheel tender. Drawings to be seen at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knepp736/sets/72157629160318969/

- Nine Baldwin class 8-10D 2-6-0 locomotives, two with 600 gallon 4-wheel tenders and seven with 1000 gallon 8-wheel tenders. Drawings and pictures to be seen at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/knepp736/sets/72157627190223991/

- Two Porter 0-4-2RT Forney-type locomotives

It is interesting to note the progression of these locomotives. The two Porters were purchased first (1885 and 1887), followed by the Baldwin 0-4-2RT locomotives of comparable size in 1892 (2), 1896 and 1905, followed by the 2-4-0 in 1905, the 4-wheel tender 2-6-0 locomotives in 1906 and the larger 2-6-0 models in 1914, 1916 (2), 1918, 1921 and 1925 (2).
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:33 am

Finally, some interesting notations from the Baldwin records:

All of the Hawaii-bound 0-4-2 locomotives in 20" gauge for the Heeia and Hana plantations were specified as: "Arrange everything and all handles in such a manner that one man in the cab can run the engine". They were also to be built with "wire netting under the damper" and with "tank and fuel space to be placed as low as possible" with a Radley & Hunter stack, all features that would be very helpful running on rough portable track in a cane field covered in flammable debris.

And finally...the actual smallest locomotive built by Baldwin...a class 4-2C built in 24" gauge for the Atami Railway in Japan. This tiny locomotive was 11' 0" long, 4' 1" wide, 6' 6" high, had 20" drivers on a 3' 6" wheelbase, 4.5" x 10" cylinders and a tiny 50-gallon saddle tank on a 16" diameter boiler, total engine weight only 4300 pounds. More interesting is the railway, which was converting from a "human powered Tramway" status to an actual railway, and the resultant bodywork and instructions. The cab was to be built as a canopy style from #18 Aluminum, painted Black and Gold, with the instructions: "Engine to look as much unlike a regular locomotive as possible so as to avoid coming under govt. regulations for Railways. Give particular attention to see engine is well built". The locomotive was also equipped with Dietz Automobile-style 6" kerosene headlights rather than normal locomotive headlamps. The engine was noted to be running powered uphill one-way and drifting downhill the other way, with engine fittings to suit this operation style, and to fit the line which was 16 miles long with 1 in 25 grades, 25 foot minimum radius and the longest grade being 1 mile long.

The locomotive only operated on this railway for three years in this configuration, as the line was converted to proper steam operation and to 36" gauge in 1907 (the locomotive was built in 1904).
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby tebee » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:07 pm

There is some very interesting stuff there - a few locos I never knew about.

The Atami Railway loco - did it get converted to 1067mm with the rest of the line ?

I ask because there is this photo on Wikipedia

Image

Which shows a tiny loco for 3ft 6 gauge - it looks too small - having said that the preserved 0-4-0 side tank from this line is tiny too, so it's equally possible it was built that way.

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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby Trevor Coburn » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:36 pm

Thanks for taking the time & effort to share your research with us..

Now a minimum gauge Shay ----hmmm !



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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:11 am

There are no notations in the Baldwin records as to gauge changes for the Atami locomotive that I can find. Baldwin seems to have made a record in many other locomotive records whenever parts were ordered to convert a locomotive from one gauge to another and many locomotives were built pre-configured to be converted from one gauge to another. This is not to say that a conversion could not have been done locally, however. I found quite a few notations regarding change of gauge and two popular scenarios for convertible locomotives: broad gauge to standard gauge and 1.1m gauge to 1m gauge.

Somehow I doubt that is the locomotive, unless it was changed drastically in a rebuild. The builder's listing shows only a 50 gallon saddle tank, and that looks quite a lot larger. I have seen references to other Baldwin locomotives used by Atami, but frankly it was the tiny size and the odd notations that struck my interest. I am no expert on Japanese railways...perhaps we have a member who is?

As for the minimum gauge Shay, more information, including a photo, can be found here:

http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima3354/sn-2530.htm

Unfortunately any attempt to use the Bachmann On30 Shay would be a caricature in Gn15...which is fine by me, but essentially this little Shay was the smallest version of the same class as the Bachmann Shay, just a few decades later. If you're interested, look up C/N 305 in the database on the website above, which is essentially the locomotive that the Bachmann product was based upon.
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby Trevor Coburn » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:45 pm

Thanks for the info, but having built Shay's from scratch in 0n2, 0n3 &Sn3 building one in 1:24 wouldn't be that much of a challenge now (or would it :shock: )No way would I think about hacking a Bachman one about. .....Now do the slot-car people still use bevel gears?

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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby Nevadablue » Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:44 am

This is a nice reference thread. It bears some study. Thanks for doing this!
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby Brack » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:38 pm

further to the CW hunt information - if you have the Binns/Koch Meyer Articulated Locomotives book (ISBN 1.900095.07.6) on pages 95-96 there are a couple of illustrations and some details on a 21" gauge Meyer (they called it a duplex) 0440T that Hunt offered in their catalogues from 1889 to about 1900. It looks very european, and is probably not a Hunt product per se, but perhaps a result of a koppel connection or similar. There is a photo, so at least one presumably existed, but other than this there are no other records of it. Apparently it could run on 10' curves, is 4 cylindered with a well tank.

The only reference I can find online is on this page: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008717775

look at volume 63 (1889), pages 524-529 and you'll find this illustration:
Image

The photo in the Binns/Koch book is this one, and shows the loco to be somewhat more european looking than Hunt's illustration. It would also suggest at least one of these existed, though where, and if there was more than one of them is unknown: Image

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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:06 am

Very neat! Thanks, Brack. Only bad news is that now I have to go through the entire Hathitrust collection.
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby jefran » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:34 pm

I missed this at the time as I was on holiday, and have had a lot of trouble connecting here recently, I only managed to find the thread because I had taken on a very similar exercise and was trying to find out more about the Carmen Central. In view of the huge customer base that Baldwin had I was expecting to find a good deal more 18in gauge equipment than I had come across in going through 15 or so volumes of Baldwin specificatons - thanks for doing the job for us! Did you manage to find anything more on the Buffalo Bolt 4 6 C, I have done a little looking but not found anything.
I came across a picture of a very small Porter (steam) 0-4-0 mining loco for the Mt Pleasant Mining Co with a gent in a straw boater and bow tie towering over it, the cylinders are given as 5 x 8 and the weight as 7,000lb (less than 4 tons), but there is no reference to the gauge: has this engine featured in your research?
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:24 pm

PM me if you would like me to send you the image of the order page for the Buffalo Bolt Co. locomotive.

Some interesting details from the page, though:

Rigid Wheelbase: 2'6"
Curves on the line: 12' Radius
Grades: 0.5%
20" Diameter Drivers, Outside Flanged, with 16" diameter centers
Stephenson Valve Motion
Outside frames of cast steel
Straight Boiler Diameter 20", tube length 4'6"
Firebox 16" L, 26" W, 21.5" Deep
7.5" x 14" Firebox Door
12" Dome Diameter, central on boiler, style 9 and 14 dome casing
Standard smokebox length
6" x 10" Cylinders
Plate Steel Canopy
Cab and running boards of Iron
Cast Steel Bumper Plate on the front only
Radial Drawbar, center 12" above rail
Two small "Roundcase" Headlights, kerosene burning
No handrails
16 pound bell
Oil fuel tank located in left side of cab, holding 50 gallons
Water tanks are rectangular, on sides of boiler, holding 80 gallons
Painted in style #223, Olive Green and Aluminum, with planished iron cylinder heads
Builder's Plate on the Smoke Box Door
Marking on the tanks: "BUFFALO BOLT COMPANY"
Road number "2" on the cab sides.

For your reference, the similar paint style #223 Olive Green and Gold (different colour of striping/lining) can be seen here:
http://www.pacificng.com/ref/locobuilders/blw/style/stylediag/Na1-Lyn-Colour2-STLE-292-223.png
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:25 pm

As for the Porter locomotive, the H.K. Porter Book lists the following steam locomotives with 5"x8" cylinders or smaller (these being the smallest steam locomotives Porter offered). You will note that the gauges ranged from 60cm gauge up to standard gauge, despite the small sizes. The locomotive you mention is apparently the first manufactured in that small size (although Porter builder's records are not perfect). There were quite a few more of the next size up (5" x 10" cylinders) manufactured.

CN 1597, 5/1894, 0-4-0T, 28" Gauge, 3.5 tons, Mount Pleasant Mining Company (Nova Scotia, Canada) Class 5x8+20-B-?
CN 1894/1895, 0-4-2T, 8/1898, 36" Gauge, Snyder Banana Co. (Panama via Mobile AL) Class 5x8-2-B-R-K
CN 2015/2016, 0-4-2T, 8/1899, 36" Gauge, Snyder Banana Co. (Panama via Mobile AL) Class 5x8-2-B-R-K
Despite the date on the photo, this appears to be one of these locomotives: http://www.bananamuseum.com/snyder9.jpg
CN 2102, 0-4-2T, 12/1899, 36" Gauge, United Fruit Co. (formerly Snyder Banana Co.) (Panama via Mobile AL) Class 5x8-2-B-R-K
CN 2309/2310, 0-4-0, 3/1901, 24" Gauge, S.H. Payne & Son (New York, NY)(International Dealer) Class 5x8-B-?
CN 2399, 0-4-0, 8/1901, 24" Gauge, Coplay Cement Manufacturing Co. (Coplay, PA) Class 5x8-B-?
CN 2504, 0-4-4T, 3/1902, 36" Gauge, Perrin, Seamans & Co. (Cunard Wharf, MA) Class 5x8-4-B-R?
CN 2543, 0-4-0T, 3/1902, 24" Gauge, Puako Plantation Co. "Puako" (Puako, Kohala, Hawaii) 5x8+20-B-S
CN 2673. 0-4-0, 12/1902, 30" Gauge, LaClede Firebrick Manufacturing Co. (St Louis, MO) Class 5x8-B-?
CN 3140, 0-4-0, 2/1905, 36" Gauge, American Lime & Slate Co. (Bellafonte, PA) Class 4x12-B-?
CN 3620, 0-4-0T, 8/1906, 36" Gauge, Missoula Mercantile Co. (Missoula, MT) Class 5x8-B-S
CN 4047/4048/4049, 0-4-0, 2/1908, 27" Gauge, Loretto Iron Co. (Loretto, MI) Class 4x7-B-?
CN 4270/4271/4272, 0-4-0T, 1/1909, Standard Gauge, 3 tons, Empresa de Carros Urbanos (Guyaquil, Ecuador) Class 4.5x8+18-B-S-M-K
Image here: http://www.tramz.com/ec/g/g09.jpg
CN 4318/4319/4320, 0-4-0T, 4/1909, Standard Gauge, 3 tons, Empresa de Carros Urbanos (Guyaquil, Ecuador) Class 4.5x8+18-B-S-M-K
CN 4430/4431/4432/4433/4434/4435, 0-4-0T, 11/1909, Standard Gauge, 3 tons, Empresa de Carros Urbanos (Guyaquil, Ecuador) Class 4.5x8+18-B-S-M-K
CN 4863, 0-4-0T, 4/1911, 26" Gauge, 4.5 tons, Orenstein & Koppel Co. for Puerto Rico Class 5x8+18-B-S-O
CN 5004, 0-4-0T, 1/1912, 36" Gauge, 4.4 tons, Piedmont Tin Mining Co. (Charleston, SC) Class 5x8+18-B-S-K
CN 5136/5137/5138, 7/1912, 30" Gauge, 4.5 tons, Augustus A Lindo & Co. (Jamaica) Class 5x8+18-B-SS-K
CN 5588, 0-4-0, 10/1914, 30" Gauge, 3.5 tons, NY & NJ Construction Co. (Newark, NJ) Class 5x8+18-B-Geared
CN 5593, 0-4-0, 8/1914, Standard Gauge, 4 tons, Northern Construction Co. (Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada) Class 5x8+20-B-Geared
Note: Used in CNoR Construction, northern British Columbia
CN 5594/5595, 0-4-0, 8/1914, 24" Gauge, 4 tons, Crawford Co. (Brooklyn, NY) Class 5x8+20-B-Geared
CN 5617/5618, 0-4-0T, 11/1914, 60cm Gauge, 5 tons, Pennsylvania-Mexico Fuel Co. (Mexico) Class 5x8+18-B-SS-K
CN 5676, 0-4-0, 8/1915, Standard Gauge, 3 tons, A. Guthrie & Co. (St Paul, MN) Class 4x5+24-B-Geared
Note: may have been used for construction in British Columbia railway construction
CN 5697/5698, 0-4-0, 8/1915, 36" Gauge, Venezuela Sugar Co. Class 4.5x6.5+22-B-Geared
CN 5735, 0-4-0, 9/1915, Standard Gauge, 3 tons, A. Guthrie & Co. (St Paul, MN) Class 4x5+24-B-Geared
Note: may have been used for construction in British Columbia railway construction
CN 5736, 0-4-0, 10/1915, 24" Gauge, 10 tons, Grohne Contracting Co. (Joliet, IL) Class 4.5x6.5+20-B-Geared
CN 5754, 0-4-0, 10/1915, 24" Gauge, 10 tons, Grohne Contracting Co. (Joliet, IL) Class 4.5x6.5+20-B-Geared
CN 6020, 0-4-0, 6/1917, 24" Gauge, 6.5 tons, Carpenter Steel Company #20 (Reading, PA) Class 4.5x6.5+22-B-Geared-T4
Image here: http://www.gearedsteam.com/other/images/porter_carpenter_steel_co_20.jpg
CN 6140, 0-4-0T, 3/1918, 24" Gauge, Ture Iron & Car Co. (British West Indies) Class 5x8+18-B-SS-K
CN 6552/6553/6554, 0-4-0T, 8/1920, 37" Gauge, 4.75 tons, United Fruit Company Class 5x8+18-B-SS-K
CN 6591, 0-4-0T, 10/1920, 60cm Gauge, 5 tons, Pennsylvania-Mexico Fuel Co. (Mexico) Class 5x8+18-B-SS-K
CN 6674/6675, 0-4-0T, 7/1921, 24" Gauge, 5 tons, United Fruit Co. (Tela RR # 6 & #7)(Honduras) Class 5x8+18-B-SS-K
CN 6689, 0-4-0T, 11/1921, 40" Gauge, V.S. Veasey Coal Co. (Mount Hope, WV) Class 5x8+18-B-SS
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:26 pm

For those who aren't familiar with the Porter Classification system:

5x8 Cylinder diameter and stroke
+20 20" Diameter driving wheels
2 or 4 number of trailing wheels (Porter system is opposite to the Whyte system)
B four driving wheels (C would be six, etc.)
S Saddle Tank, SS = Side Tank, R = Rear Tank, RR = twin Rear Tanks
G Geared
T4 Four wheeled tender
K Plantation Cab
O No Cab
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:27 pm

Bizarre...had great difficulties posting these replies because the forum doesn't accept equal signs in text?
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby jefran » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:38 pm

Thanks very much for all of this! I have the mss0061_02.... files and spent 2 days going through them before I found your post, so I have the Buffalo Bolt spec, what I have only just noticed is the * next to the gauge and that this must be a Hunt system machine. There is a note at the top, "as specn B-5544", does this mean that Baldwin had quoted for, or supplied, something similar before? I can see a number of specs around this number towards the end of volume 25, but not this one. Presumably the original equipment would have come from Hunt and this might refer to an engine supplied to them for this job. On the subject of classifications, Baldwin's is rather harder to work with than Porter's!
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby jefran » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:58 pm

This looks very similar to the Bald Mountain loco
http://www.mrollins.com/hon30.html
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:59 pm

Usually when a locomotive was based off another locomotive the comment reads "As per ####" or "As per Spec. ####". The term "B-5544" appears to reference a detail drawing of the Hunt System, not a locomotive "Memorandum Specification". Some of the other spec cards reference drawings within the A series as well (i.e.: the Hunt system electric locos both reference "A-1172").

FYI, Locomotive Memo Spec 5544 is on Page 125 of Volume 25, and is for a standard gauge Class 8-32C for the Long Island Railroad.

The only Hunt system locomotives I have found in the Baldwin Records are:

(1899) Vol 22 Page 252: 4-2-8C B/E for "The Electric Storage Battery Company"
(1900) Vol 23 Page 294: 4-2-8C O/H/E for "The Stanley Works"
(This locomotive references the previous, but removes the battery in favour of trolley poles)
(1906) Vol 29 Page 234: 4-6C for "Bridgeport Malleable Iron Co."
(1911) Vol 39 Page 96: 4-6C for "Buffalo Bolt Co."
(1909) Vol 41 Page 48: 4-6C for "Bridgeport Malleable Iron Co."

It's quite likely there were other electric locomotives built to the gauge, but those records were separated from the steam locomotive records shortly after the first couple were built and are not online to my knowledge. Hunt built their own electric locomotives and they seem to have encouraged people to shop around for steam locomotives.

If anyone wants to read about some odd engineering, have a close read through the Hunt catalogues. The system actually had custom made rails for the curves so that as the car or locomotive went around the curve, the outer wheel started riding on its flange edge. This meant the the diameter of the outer wheel was effectively greater than that of the inner wheel, forming a conical shape, which rolls around curves better. They also had independently swivelling single axles on either end of most of their cars...their four wheel cars could have axles that were several degrees out of parallel with each other, automatically steering themselves to better go around tight curves. Hence the note that the locomotives were designed to go around 12 foot radius curves...essentially these locomotives could traverse a circle of track barely double their length in diameter. Especially useful within tight factory confines. It also meant the Hunt flanges were reinforced and the Hunt cars could be run on hard surfaces without rails if needed. Hunt even made transition track panels for this purpose.

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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby jefran » Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:24 pm

Chris,
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I could not connect to the site after mid-afternoon yesterday, despite rebooting, restarting the router and flushing the cache (whatever that it is!) I had not got further with my trawl than volume 39, so I had not got as far as the 49 reference. In the UK there was a small hard core of people who took pictures of industrial railways and shots of quite obscure systems turn up from time to time; did anyone, other than Hunt's people, take pictures of their engines in service.

Going back to the Bald Mountain machine, I suspect that the drawing I mentioned is the same engine, the dates fit and the text says that the mine was near Forest City, California, and according to Google Earth Bald Mountain is 6.5 miles away.
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby tebee » Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:20 pm

If anyone want to look at the Hunt catalogues they are available online here http://www.narrowgaugechaos.com/RPC/Mat ... tIndex.htm

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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby csundstr » Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:11 am

Andrew:

The Bald Mountain locomotive is a Class 4-10 1/2C. It is in Volume 8, Page 35, built 1876 in 20" gauge for the Bald Mountain Gold Mining Company which was, yes, located near Forest City, California.

Note that the "1/2" designator indicates it was built to a special design, specifically in this case that it was built as a Mine-Class locomotive. From the Memo Spec:

"Size of hole the engine must go through" followed by a sketch of the mine shaft clearances. The lower portion is rectangular, 48" wide and 18" high. The upper portion tapers to a width of 30" at a total height of 66".

You can see an image of the locomotive here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8dSSt1CR7do/UkoZC0Kci1I/AAAAAAAAAAY/oGctjg1Msqs/s1600/Wallis.jpg

As for Hunt photos, I'm certain there are photos in existence, but Hunt Gauge seems to be rather obscure and most people don't realize or recognize what they are looking at. There are certainly many, many photos of the interior of various factories in many archives, but the problem is digging through masses of obscure unlisted information.Add to that that many of the photos are not digitized and it means physical trips to archives. Add to that the physical size of North America and you can see the difficulties. To put it in perspective, I live in British Columbia, the western province of Canada...and with about 4 million people in an area roughly twice the size of the entire UK. I'm certain there are photos out there...for example, I have a collection of photos of old time logging railroads taken by my Grand-Uncle, as well as a large collection of WWII/Korea Canadian Navy photographs and 8mm video tape...neither of which I have found permanent homes for because even the Provincial and Naval Archives don't have space to accept everything. *sigh* There's also the fact that railroads for industrial use went out of favour here sooner than in the UK...cars were simply more affordable. Most were gone by the 1930's or merged into large conglomerates.

I'd suggest searching for an archive at the public library, city or universities in Buffalo and checking to see if any of them have archived photographs of the Buffalo Bolt Company.

Chris
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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby Brittany 1 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:28 am

csundstr wrote:Andrew:

The Bald Mountain locomotive is a Class 4-10 1/2C. It is in Volume 8, Page 35, built 1876 in 20" gauge for the Bald Mountain Gold Mining Company which was, yes, located near Forest City, California.

Note that the "1/2" designator indicates it was built to a special design, specifically in this case that it was built as a Mine-Class locomotive. From the Memo Spec:

"Size of hole the engine must go through" followed by a sketch of the mine shaft clearances. The lower portion is rectangular, 48" wide and 18" high. The upper portion tapers to a width of 30" at a total height of 66".

You can see an image of the locomotive here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8dSSt1CR7do/UkoZC0Kci1I/AAAAAAAAAAY/oGctjg1Msqs/s1600/Wallis.jpg

As for Hunt photos, I'm certain there are photos in existence, but Hunt Gauge seems to be rather obscure and most people don't realize or recognize what they are looking at. There are certainly many, many photos of the interior of various factories in many archives, but the problem is digging through masses of obscure unlisted information.Add to that that many of the photos are not digitized and it means physical trips to archives. Add to that the physical size of North America and you can see the difficulties. To put it in perspective, I live in British Columbia, the western province of Canada...and with about 4 million people in an area roughly twice the size of the entire UK. I'm certain there are photos out there...for example, I have a collection of photos of old time logging railroads taken by my Grand-Uncle, as well as a large collection of WWII/Korea Canadian Navy photographs and 8mm video tape...neither of which I have found permanent homes for because even the Provincial and Naval Archives don't have space to accept everything. *sigh* There's also the fact that railroads for industrial use went out of favour here sooner than in the UK...cars were simply more affordable. Most were gone by the 1930's or merged into large conglomerates.

I'd suggest searching for an archive at the public library, city or universities in Buffalo and checking to see if any of them have archived photographs of the Buffalo Bolt Company.

Chris

I've often wondered what the percentage is of known industrial railways to the unknown across the world, how much do we really actually know and moving on from that how many types of locomotives are there that have existed but we no nothing of ? Obviously a question impossible to awnser but it does give food for thought....

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Re: North American Minimum Gauge Industrial Locomotives

Postby jefran » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:50 pm

Maybe there is something waiting to be discovered!

I did a little more poking around and found a higher resolution version of the Baldwin mining loco drawing and I am fairly certain it is the Bald Mountain engine
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gwaliorlight/16412493586/

Looking through the list of Baldwin detailed drawings, there are a number listed for this engine, and some others for the same class but for other customers; I had a brief look around but couldn't turn anything up.
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