Unidentified Lister

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Adam Roper
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Postby Adam Roper » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:43 am

So far no one has come up with anything for 10881.

It sounds like a truck number but it could easily be a road truck.

Identifying the bits is quite hard - I spent ages trying to find the source of the Lister bits under Terry Stanhope's loco. He said they came off the scrap heap at Fairbourne so I spent ages working out if they were off Gwiril or Whippet Quick. It wasn't until I saw a photo of Dingo at Sutton Coldfield that the true source became clear.....
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Postby Steve Bennett » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:23 pm

Probably going to confuse things even further, but have you ever seen the pump trolley they had at Longleat :?:
I can only vaguely remember seeing a photo of it, but the underframe did have a bit of a Lister look to it from what I remember.
Have tried a quick search, but drawn a blank so far.
I could be way off the mark, but then again........ :)
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Postby Colin Peake » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:42 pm

The pump trolley is documented as being a rebuild of the tool van, itself built on one of the later, bus seated Minirail 'quick build' coaches that were built when the Minirail operation shifted to Axe & Lyme and some coaches were required to run at Longleat for the new operator there.

http://www.longleat-railway.com/rolling ... ll6-9.html

I think that it is fair to say that the Minirail frame design owes a lot to Lister practice anyway, as Mr Colley can no doubt confirm!

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Postby Steve Bennett » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:07 pm

Ah, that clears that one up Colin, I think it might be the picture at the bottom of the page that I saw. Though it looks similar in some ways, it is obvious now that it isn't a Lister frame :oops:
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Postby Adam Roper » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:36 pm

This is all getting nicely off topic (which is always more fun).

I like the pump trolley - it has history, its been something else and it looks fun. This is as it should be.

I am not sure if Listers should get too much credit for frame design etc - a lot of Lister design is rather Gumbyish (the Gumbys were a bunch of odd Monty Python characters). The principle is along the lines of 'get a bit of metal and bolt it to another bit of metal' and it isn't always subtle.

In fairness to Listers they knew their market - their machines might have been a bit crude but they worked well and could survive a lot of use and abuse. This is why so much of their stuff survives.

As an interesting aside Neill has built a replica Decauville coach - link http://wn.com/SALTBURN_STEAM_2007__Part_3__Decauville_stuff. This is fun as it was built to the drawings in the Decauville catalogue and looks the part - so much so that someone somewhere has declared it to be an orginal. This illustrates the problems of tracing the history of miniature railway equipment. Meanwhile the tipper wagon really is real....
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Postby MichaelPG » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:04 pm

Adam Roper wrote:In fairness to Listers they knew their market - their machines might have been a bit crude but they worked well and could survive a lot of use and abuse. This is why so much of their stuff survives.


Lister Railtrucks are not crude machines. I had no idea how complex the design is until recently. Just to give you an idea a well-known firm of light railway engineers estimates the cost of making a new Lister railtruck gearbox at £20,000 + VAT. There's a lot of very clever wrinkles needed to make a machine as light as a Railtruck which is also robust enough to stand rough treatment.

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Postby Larry » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:37 pm

Adam Roper wrote: a lot of Lister design is rather Gumbyish (the Gumbys were a bunch of odd Monty Python characters).


If you were of a certain age in America, this Art Clokey stop motion clay TV character from the 1950's was Gumby:
Image

Resilience from being squashed or deformed and reforming himself into new shapes were traits of this misshapen character. His nemeses were the Blockheads,
Last edited by Larry on Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Adam Roper » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:23 am

A couple of quick points:

Listers were agricultural engineers and worked to agricultural standards. There's nothing wrong with this but they tended to be a little unsopisticated at times.

Neither the rail or road trucks were designed for minimum weight - they were carefully ballasted up so that the weight matched the power of the engine - the bigger the engine the more ballast you got. The standard railtruck carries about 750kg of ballast, the bigger engined ones carry about a tonne.

Compact might be a better description than light - the Lister used on the Welsh Highland raised a few eyebrows when it turned out to be capable of the same jobs as a small Motorail, but given the amount of ballast it proved up to the job.

£20,000 sounds about right for building a completely new Lister although in reality it might make more sense to update the design and go for a fully bodied loco with hydraulic transmission - this would really do the job.
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Postby MichaelPG » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:47 am

A picture of our Lister is here: https://picasaweb.google.com/1125469436 ... llingStock
Thanks to Alan Keef Ltd. for re-gauging it, and all credit to David and Jez who did an amazingly quick restoration including making a new brake shaft and trunion, designing and fitting an air brake system so that it can handle all our trains, and lots of other work as well.
Paint is Lister Green supplied by http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/ - superb quality, can't praise it enough.
And finally, I didn't say you could build a complete Lister Railtruck for £20,000. That price was for the gearbox. I think it's a bit high, I think you might get the clutch and sprockets for that as well. Here's what a new Lister might cost if you had one built from scratch:
    Wheelsets including patterns - £5,000
    Axleboxes, hornguides (use borrowed as patterns), springs - £4,000
    Brake rigging - £3,000
    Frame and weights assuming borrowed weights as patterns - £4,000
    Secondhand engine & fuel tank - £500
    Gearbox and transmission - £20,000
    Sundry fittings, erection, painting - £2,000
    Total £38,500 plus VAT £7,700 = £46,200

Does anyone know where you can get chilled cast iron castings nowadays? Lister wheels are chilled c/i and I know someone who has a pattern for both the wheels and the chill, but nobody seems to know anywhere to get the castings done. This is probably the wrong forum to ask, but you never know.

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Postby Adam Roper » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:34 pm

Ouch!

£20,000 for a gearbox is an awful lot - it must be possible to get a marine unit for less than that......

We bid for the ex Painter's Lister from the Perrygrove last year, but we didn't bid enough....
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Postby Adam Roper » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:41 pm

As a quick update the number '10881' has been eliminated.

The chassis contains some new cross bearers and this number is stamped into one of them. It may realte to some other machine but it is not on one of the original loco bits.

Neill has been busy painting and fettling - quite a nice lightweight Lister will emerge from his work. After that the ex Arthington / Cleethorpes loco will be next - this will hopefully become a small Fowler style inspection car like this one

http://www.7-8ths.info/index.php?topic=167.0
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Postby MichaelPG » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Adam Roper wrote:Ouch!

£20,000 for a gearbox is an awful lot - it must be possible to get a marine unit for less than that......

We bid for the ex Painter's Lister from the Perrygrove last year, but we didn't bid enough....


Marine gearboxes: Yes, they are cheaper. I have a good working SL2 engine here with a genuine Lister marine gearbox and it will be for sale for just £750 (engine and gearbox) in the New Year. Marine boxes are much cheaper than genuine Railtruck gearboxes. As to the cost of making a new one, I am no longer surprised by anything. It's not the prices going up, it's the value of money going down.

I really regret selling the second Painters' Railtruck. I needed the money at the time but in hindsight I think a good motto is never sell a Lister.

The Fowler forestry inspection truck looks great. Any chance of making it capable of running on both 15" and 2'0", like Skippy?

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Postby david colley jnr » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:11 pm

Michael, there is a company just around the corner from us that deal with chilled cast iron. It was one of the options we explored but in the end machined EN8 was far cheaper.
Check out the website,

www.sherwoodforestrailway.com

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Postby MichaelPG » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:09 pm

david colley jnr wrote:Michael, there is a company just around the corner from us that deal with chilled cast iron. It was one of the options we explored but in the end machined EN8 was far cheaper.

Can I have the name and phone number of that foundry please?

Yes, EN8 is cheaper, but Listers which retain a reasonable amount of originality deserve restoration using the correct methods, and when ours needs new wheels she is going to have chilled iron.

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Postby Adam Roper » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:22 pm

MichaelPG wrote:The Fowler forestry inspection truck looks great. Any chance of making it capable of running on both 15" and 2'0", like Skippy?


The inspection truck will need to stay as 15" because the axles are original Dingo components from the early 1950's so it would be a shame to replace them. The rest is rather made up (or missing) so some creative licence is necessary to make it go. It has a marine gearbox in there for forward / reverse as well as an ordinary box for the clutch and the running gears.

The inspection truck was built in the 80's by Terry Stanhope for his railway at Arthington. The wheels / axles / axleboxes came from the Fairbourne scrapheap and are ex Dingo. Dingo wasn't a Lister but they used Lister components for the running gear - this can be seen if you examine the 'as delivered' photos in the Sutton Minature Railway book

I do have a set of wheels in the shed for building a speeder but it is difficult to arrange things for both 2' and 15". However I will think about how it could be done.....
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Postby MichaelPG » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:22 pm

Adam Roper wrote:I do have a set of wheels in the shed for building a speeder but it is difficult to arrange things for both 2' and 15". However I will think about how it could be done.....


What Keefs have done with Skippy is have complete wheelsets (with driving sprockets) for each gauge, all with the same diameter journals and the same overall axle length. When Skippy changes from one gauge to another they change the wheelsets. It sounds extravagant until you think about the difficulty of making adjustable wheelsets. The other advantage of this approach is you can build the machine to the gauge you want it for, and add additional wheelsets if you get an irresistible offer to run the thing on a different gauge. All that's necessary at the beginning is to ensure the axleboxes are far enough apart to take an axle which is long enough for the largest conceivable gauge. Just a thought; I know how irritating it is when people say "what you want to do is...." !

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Postby Adam Roper » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:23 pm

I think I have a solution, but your're not going to like it.... :(

The Longleat site have posted a picture of Lenka being loaded for transport to Oakwood Park http://www.longleat-railway.com/engines/loco%201/loco1-9.html

The rear bogie frame seems to be made of 'I' section rather than the chanel section used by Listers - if this is correct then it explains what happened.

The wheels, axleboxes and hornguides are from 7280 but the bogie frame is not.

The kit of bits from Joe Nemeth included a frame but no original hornguides. The frame looks right for 1936 so I think its 7280.

It would help if someone could go to look at the railcar and confirm that the bogie frame is 'I' section - its a long way for me to go (although I had a day our in Cardiff in the spring).

To avoid argument I will stamp the new worksplates '7280A' but I think Lenka should be credited to Seven Lamb rather than Lister - I wonder if there were tax advantages in calling it a rebuild?

Please discuss....

:?
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Not something to get worksnumbered up about

Postby MichaelPG » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:36 pm

I think you should choose whatever number you feel is most appropriate, document your reasoning, and keep the document with the papers for the machine. If anyone says you are wrong, so what?
Amazing how much of Terry Stanhope's stuff has survived. Keeps cropping up all over the place.

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Lister parts catalogue

Postby Sir Briand » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:33 pm

Just stumbled across this topic.I grew up in Dursley where my Father was a GP from 1930 to 1965 so have fond memories of Listers, the Lister family and some of their daughters :D

If anyone is interested in one of these let me know and I can send you a copy. It lists all the parts as far as I can tell to make the complete chassis including the gear box etc. It is Book N0. R31 and is for the 30cwt model. The page numbers are 101 to 116. "Page numbers 1 - 100 refer to the Lister Auto Truck Spare Parts List" to quote the booklet.

Listers play a big part in my Upton Whent Manor Estate Railway as a visit to my website will show.
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Lister assembly

Postby Adam Roper » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:45 pm

I had half a day working on the Lister on Friday - it now has its couplings on and is ready for the engine to be moved back in the frames. Neill used the drawings for a short wheel base Lister for the engine bearers which meant that the sump fouled the cross member - once that's done the next job is to get the engine running.

We need to set up a cross shaft to get the petrol engine to drive the diesel clutch but after that we're getting close.

Of interest to Lister fans is proof that late model Lister R's were built as Diesel - 50191 has no cut out for a petrol sump so it can't have been petrol. I suspect that other late R's will be the same - it helps to explain why all late loco's are listed as Diesel conversions. Type RM is meant to be the Diesel version but I think it really means that they changed the clutch rather than the engine - the 'M' is modified by the way....
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Postby Adam Roper » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:24 am

OK - been busy again - the JAP engine is in the right place and the bonnet is on while the brake shoes are on order. Still plenty to do though....
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Postby Adam Roper » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:44 am

After a couple of productive days the Lister is looking better - the bonnet is on and the bits are starting to be identified for reassembly. Yesterday I managed to get the magneto put back together and by a minor miracle there is a spark. I also freed the valves so we have compression too. All we need now is some carburetion and it might just start....

The Lister isn't exactly modelling but it is fun (even if you dohave to make it up as you go along)
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Postby Adam Roper » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:50 pm

The wooden ballast weights are on - they actually look the part so long as you don't look too closely.

The lettering was cast in resin using blu tack moulds - amazingly this worked rather well.
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Postby Adam Roper » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:15 pm

OK

Been busy again - the Lister is looking better.

The Decauville bogie wagon in 50cm gauge is even better - 134 years in industrial use in Manchester doing the same job, Neill thinks he's the only person interested in it - is he right?

And are there any Decauville wagons still in use in the UK?
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Re: Unidentified Lister

Postby Adam Roper » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:52 am

Just had a few days on the Lister - 2 steps forward, 1 step back....

It now has brakes (sort of)

And almost has the engine linked to the clutch

And it nearly looks the part so it will be going to Narrow Gauge North in 2016

NGRS visit planned for 2016 - I will post details closer to the time - all welcome

No progress on the smaller gauges as everything is more or less complete except for the ex Terry Stanhope loco - still worth looking at though as its a nice collection
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