Purists reaction to Gn15

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Gerry Bullock
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Purists reaction to Gn15

Postby Gerry Bullock » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:52 pm

I've started this thread as a result of my comment here:
http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?p=104299#104299
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:40 pm

Many of those purists can't see beyond a Hornby of Bachmann box.
Its not just Gn15, there seems to be something against narrow gauge especially amongst those organising exhibitions.
Seem to have had lots of interest in the APA box modules, possibly because some see the potential for their own modelling, even though it is not Gn15.
We got a couple of invites at Telford, namely the annual G gauge society event in Stafford next year, and Jarrow the following year.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
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Postby KEG » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:57 pm

A model railroad without a ghost is not really a model of a railway.
Who causes all those derailments or electric failures? Not my sloppy modelling, that is certain.

Have not seen my local ghost for quite a while. Must ask the hamster.


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Postby Mark Goodwin » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:25 pm

Gerry,

One of the things that I have become aware of when researching some of my Emett/Heath Robinson inspired locos for the MG & FT is that the railway world is full of unusual and sometimes bizarre creations - and this is from the real world.

What I enjoy about modelling is the creative aspect. It's the time and creative effort that's been put into a model that counts in my opinion.

When you look at it, each individual model is unique - there isn't another "Gneiss Cider" out there. Perhaps it is the creative "trying-out- something-new" that scares purists and/or rivet counters.

I think it was Adrian who exhibited an Emett inspired layout in Australia and dealt with a rivet counter by referring them to the real Emett Oystercreek and Far Tottering that really existed at the Festival of Britain in 1951.
Link here: http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=8443

If you are like me, then I keep it simple: I like all trains and railway models.

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Postby Glen A » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:36 pm

If a model railway show was full of standard OO scale layouts, it would be a very boring show indeed.

The public like variety and imagination and entertainment. And you don’t get a lot of that when you are using out-of-the-box OO scale models. :roll:

Therefore it’s no surprise to me that an standard OO scale layout hardly ever takes out top award from the public (in fact never over here).

If the extreme rivet counters (you know the sort of people I am talking about) don't like Gn15 and stay away, then I say that’s’ a good thing! :twisted:

We are having fun. And the public like it.
That’s all that matters. :P

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Postby DCRfan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:01 am

I have found with both my Gn15 and 1:35th scale layouts that the public are generally more receptive to these different scale/subjects than some modellers who, in my opinion, can't see past RTR mainstream subjects.

At exhibitions I don't think I've ever had a member of the public one walk past without at least looking over the layout for a few seconds. I can't say the same for some other exhibitors who don't even pause rushing past to the next US HO, German Marklin or British OO layout :? The Lego railway builders always stop :lol: :lol: They appreciate art as well :P
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Postby Adrian » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:32 am

G'day Folks
Just a few thoughts from someone who has always tended to work on the fringes of railway modelling. (I once used the, then new, Triang TT to give me a narrow gauge feeder on my OO layout ..... long before NG was well known, let alone popular .... now that ages me !)
However it really started seriously nearly thirty years ago when I joined a group who modeled in 009 using their own unique modular system.
I was lucky that most of the modelers were exceptionally talented and they tended to pull me up towards their level rather than the other-way around.
But even then, although our collective modelling was 'Avant-garde' I tended to try and push the frontiers just that little bit further.
The camel train as an example.
Image
Although we received many good complements on the layout from ALL modelers there were many times when, I believe, we missed out on deserved awards due to the fact that we were narrow gauge, non-prototype, non-mainstream and ALWAYS had fun.
Although we did manage to get a fair number of public awards.

I then built the FT & OC which went to 60 shows. In all that time it only received three awards.
One was a public vote, one was best child's theme and one was best in show by judges.
I was very happy with the public vote, (even if it was just at a small country show.)
Personally I believe that the layout was an adult's theme layout that children could enjoy.
However I was over the moon with the best in show as the judges ignored the 'obvious' first 'cartoonie' visual impact and actually looked at the modelling and had seen what I had actually achieved.
This was towards the end of the layout's life and I had gotten used to be 'passed over' for 'more conventional' layouts and so was a great boost to the moral.
Up to that time I was content to just listen to the positive remarks from the public realizing that because I was 'different' I would probably never be invited to the winner's rostrum.

Since the FT & OC has retired I have just concentrated on small, 'different' types of layouts, which must have 'something' as I keep getting invites to shows even if not being rewarded with any awards.
Image
So I have come to expect nothing from the majority of the 'serious modelling' society, although I am very fortunate in knowing a large number of very talented modelers who share a similar mindset as myself, even if they are not quite so daft, which does keep me (sort of) sane (?).

So over the last thirty years of exhibiting model railways I have come to appreciate that there are those who 'build superb model railways exact to the last rivet' who will NEVER understand Gn15 and similar.
Then there are those, like the members of this forum. who 'build superb miniature railways and have a LOT of FUN'

Just my 5 cents worth (....... the 2 cent coin being now obsolete for some years)

PS Nearly forgot .... at one show the FT & OC was presented with a coffee mug for attending 21 shows .... they count was wrong but the thought was there .... still use the coffee mug now)

Just hope that I haven't ranted on too long, or too far off topic,
cheers.
Adrian Hoad
I might be daft but not stupid.

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Postby Si » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:42 am

At the risk of causing offence I'll spout my 2p's worth.

when I first became aware of gn15 the thing that really stood out to me, and put me off, was the standard of the figures used on some layouts. I saw layouts with wonderfully detailed scenery, beautiful rolling stock and engines, all operating faultlessly, but totally blighted by 'people' of obviously differing scales, some of whom appeared to be cartoon characterish in nature, and more often than not very poorly painted. Just made me think: you've gone to all this trouble to create such a wonderful layout then spoilt it with grotty and lazy figures. Indeed, I often wondered if the operator had just bought the layout in a completed state because they couldn't model to that standard, as demonstrated by the figures that they'd later added.

this is a view I've heard from others too, and so it may be a factor in giving a perception that gn15 is a toy-like scale.

Of course, I fully accept the fact that every layout is its owner's property and so the owner should add to it what they want. Indeed, some 'dodgy' figures are obviously added as an attempt at humour (e.g. the Wallace and Grommet seen on this forum) and work very well. After all, we do this to enjoy ourselves rather than meticulously follow the rivet counter's rule book - so I'm not criticising anyone for their choice of figures. But, nonetheless, it is one reason why others might mistakenly think it a 'non-serious' scale/gauge that 'brings the hobby into disrepute'.

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Postby KEG » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:37 am

What´s wrong with the figures I
i am using? They are in scale perfectly.

Image

Let´s face, if I stroll around at exibitions, I don´t look at every layout neither. No matter of scale or gauge. Some simply look boaring.

Have fun

Juergen

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Postby Blackcloud Railways » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:13 pm

The figures are fine Juergen, but the train seems a bit under scale. :lol:

The reason we seem to be observed as having fun is... Errrm... Because we are. It's a hobby, some people like building an exact scale model of something as it was on a certain time and date. That's fine. It's what they like doing, let them. We like doing what we do just as much, as this forum testifies. :D

Turning the thread title around, how about the Gn15 modeller's view of so called "Purists"?

What bugs me is the self appointed elite who model (as they describe it) "finescale". OK, I can live with this when they're using an exact gauge/scale match... Something like Gn15 really. What I just laugh at, and walk away from without taking any further notice, are the ones who claim to be exact scale modellers of what would appear to be main line trains running on a four foot gauge railway.

Get real folks, finescale? By that standard you can use the same track for Cape Gauge, in fact it's closer to 3'6" than it is to standard gauge. If it's OO, it cannot be finescale. Stop pretending you're better than anyone else! Quite simple.

Purism or pure fun? I know exactly with which camp my sentiments lie.

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Postby Tomo » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:59 pm

As an operator of a non-traditional layout has anyone thought to say to the viewing Rivet Counter, "Humor me?"

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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:05 pm

On one layout I have seen a TV detector van repainted as a 'Rivet Counter Detector' van, and it was a OO layout.
I have nothing against those who choose to model in other scales/gauges, but when they try to act superior, when their models have serious defects, such as an electric motor instead of a steam boiler, not withstanding the under-gauged OO, which is another reason why I prefer HO to OO . Remember that Peco OO/HO track even has sleepers at HO spacing.
Model railway exhibitions are places to entertain the paying public, so why are there so many ultra fine scale layouts out there with either nothing running(fault no-one can fix), or one train every hour(as per prototype).
Apart from the APA modular layout I tend to operate on my own, so try to build in something automated when I either need to take a break or actually stop to talk to the public. This is one reason we really need more helpers for the APA layout, even if you have not got your own module(in which case get down to IKEA and build one :lol: ). Having said that really need to make sure my trains run better.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
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Postby KEG » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:40 am

I don´t mind seeing and building Gn15 scale models. In some cases it might be scale models of a fictional prototype, but in most cases, onlookers don´t know the prototypes anyhow.

If you go through the pages of the Gnatterbox you see a vast collection of very fine models. Sometimes with a bit of humour or tongue in cheek built in.

Of course you see quite a lot, which looks like somebody took a deep grip in the waste bin, glued it together sloppily, poored some paint on and stuck the label Gn15 on it. Might be fun for the builder, but not nessessarly for paying visitors of exibitions. I simply call it lousy modelling. Not the best way to promote the idea of Gn15.


Image

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Postby Gavin Sowry » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:46 am

:shock: One of the leading lights in the Model Railway fraternity once called my Gn15 modelling, a 'statement'.... whatever that means.
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Postby DCRfan » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:55 am

Gavin Sowry wrote::shock: One of the leading lights in the Model Railway fraternity once called my Gn15 modelling, a 'statement'.... whatever that means.


Obviously meant to say 'stately' which my dictionary explains means; dignified, imposing and grand :P
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Postby Gavin Sowry » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:03 am

Glen A wrote:If a model railway show was full of standard OO scale layouts, it would be a very boring show indeed.



:( Indeed. I once was sent north to officiate at a sports event (i.e. free trip). Just happened to be a 'propietery brand' model show on while I was there..... 25 layouts all up. Must have spent more than 1 minute at some of the layouts, 'cause I was in and out in half an hour :!:
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Postby KEG » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:40 am

Its all a question of proper pressentation. Good lighting, free food, drinks and women and I stay longer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0yuZBJtNa4


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Postby AndyA » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:20 pm

I have two APAs in progress, but I took the cobbles off Inversnaid because I wasn't happy with them. I've nearly finished the pier for the Gnollies (even I don't normally work this slowly but we've had problems with the plumbing and electrics which take precedence). I'll now redo those cobbles the same way, probably scrapping the hotel because it does actually look like too much of a caricature for me.

And I agree with Si, one problem with G if I want to make an urban model is the lack of affordable but realistic figures.

I have, over the years, seen several very interesting 'rivet counter' layouts: even some 'shake the box' layouts have held my attention. But it's the quirky stuff that interests me most, which is why Gn15 holds my attention.

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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:15 pm

with respect to figures, the variety of sizes that are marketed as G does not help. Even the figures produced by LGB varied, even in the same sets. I am less bothered by the characterish figures, but when I see the same figures being used I am put off.
Maybe I see model railways differently to others, especially as I now prefer to be creative with my artwork, and would almost contemplate visiting an art exhibition rather than some model railway exhibitions.
My model railways are now an extension of my artwork, and are deliberately impressionist, as that is my main artistic influence. Obviously that is not to everyone's taste, but I do what I like to do, and I do get favourable comments.
Art is more important to me than science, science(engineering) only being important when it relates to trains not falling off the track. That is the limit to my engineering skills. Maybe its a cop out but I know my limits, so choose to move sideways and concentrate on the fun side.
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Postby ijopson » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:22 pm

My wife attends with me most of the shows I visit, and she tends to merely glance at the 'normal' layouts on view but is drawn to the small, the quirky, the humorous, the different. As, in her opinion, "if you've seen one train layout you don't need to see another one". At least after our first circumnavigation she goes to do a crossword leaving me to take my time.

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Postby Si » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:27 pm

Model railway exhibitions are places to entertain the paying public,


Here's where I think some of the problem lies. We might go to an exhibition with the intention of entertaining the general public and perhaps inspiring them to have a go at railway modelling. Others. who might see them selves as experienced and advanced modellers, go to exhibitions to sample the quality of others' layouts. they've paid their hard earned money and so they want to see some quality that follows the perceived wisdom gained over years of effort of what is an exhibition quality layout.

So with two different groups having entirely different views of what should be on display, is it any wonder that they don't always see eye to eye?

I could quite understand someone like this not 'getting' your impressionist APAs, Simon. Their layouts merely mindlessly describe reality, whereas your layouts intentionally interpret it. And I have to say that I believe that your route is by far the harder one to do well - perhaps another reason why they might not want to 'get it'?

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Postby AndyA » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:40 pm

My wife, too, tends to focus on the 'little scenes' rather than the finely detailed locomotives or whatever. I won't single out any one or two but a number of the ones regularly featured on here are favourites precisely because they tend to be heavy on vignettes. (As mine would be if I ever finished anything:))

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Postby underworld » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:13 pm

Si wrote: But, nonetheless, it is one reason why others might mistakenly think it a 'non-serious' scale/gauge that 'brings the hobby into disrepute'.


Si
I like being disreputable..... it's a guaranteed conversation starter !!!
:mrgreen: :shock: :twisted:

Adrian
Your camel railcar is awesome ! Did you know Märklin produced a similar one a few years ago ? Gnatterboxers the innovators..... mainstreamers the imitators
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Postby Cross Kitter » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:50 pm

I check into the GnATTERbox as often as I can for inspiration and the really friendly attitude of the others who inhabit it.

I used to belong to a model railway club but the infighting and back bitting made me leave.

Whilst I may not personally like everything Gn15 I do appreciate it and have found my attitude to certain types of model railways has changed since lurking on here. I used to think that I needed to go P4 and that everything should be to scale. My head has been turned though and I have now come to my senses :lol:

Long live the ecentrics, misfits and all those who decide to plough a different furrow. It can though be difficult to ignore the comments of the 'Narrow Minded' or perhaps that should be the NOT 'Narrow Minded' :lol:
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:47 pm

the slogan 'Narrow Gauge, not Narrow Minded' comes to mind. :wink:
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com


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