Purists reaction to Gn15

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Postby KEG » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:52 am

Fodder for the rivet counter. Quality control at the KEG:



Image


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Postby Korschtal » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:00 pm

We get 'rivet counters' in theatre as well: they tend to like odd plays with no story but a chain of depressing events and somebody dying. And then they complain that the public doesn't come to the theatre.

I was taught by some of theatre 'rivet counters' and I spent the course readin this bilge at the rate of one play a week. In the end I wrote a comedy. This was very popular with 'normal' people, but wasn't considered to be 'proper' theatre.

At least model railway purists aren't at the next stage. If they were then winning the 'best of show' as voted by the public would mean the layout was instantly blacklisted because if it's understandable it can't be 'art'.
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:26 am

It is understandable(but in my opinion unjustified) that less common scale/gauges combinations don't get invited to as many exhibitions as they should, but find it beyond belief when some model railway clubs don't know the difference between what should be obvious, namely Continental/American.
Looking at details for a 'local' show(but big club) and all the American themed layouts are listed as 'Continental' . Of the 2 'narrow gauge' layouts(and I could classify more as narrow gauge because they are OO), one is OO9, and the other is small scale, but does not specify what scale/gauge, and both are Welsh theme.
That's on top of having a very limited range of layouts for an exhibition which makes out it is one of the premier league, and so has a high(£7) entry price. if it wasn't local, I would not go, and even then I am not sure.
With this type of attitude it is not surprising Gn15 and other unusual models get a raw deal.
It's so refreshing to find some groups putting on shows with a bit of imagination.
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Postby Willow Creek Traction » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:24 am

rue_d_etropal wrote:Looking at details for a 'local' show(but big club) and all the American themed layouts are listed as 'Continental' .
I wonder if there might be an emotionally based conscious decision to do that.
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Postby Korschtal » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:58 pm

Willow Creek Traction wrote:
rue_d_etropal wrote:Looking at details for a 'local' show(but big club) and all the American themed layouts are listed as 'Continental' .
I wonder if there might be an emotionally based conscious decision to do that.


Probably not: For many years now the 'Continental Modeller' Magazine has included railways from Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, India, and N. and S. America. It's probably just that 'continental' has become a generic term for 'foreign'.
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:32 pm

That did cross my mind, Andy, but other clubs/exhibitions do describe layouts better. Its this sloppy way of thinking that puts obstacles in the ay of those in the hobby who want to try something different. It also slightly annoys me when articles about European railways(WW1 military) appear in magazines that would otherwise only publish something about railways(model and real) based this side of the Channel.
Continental Modeller provides a good service, but I would rather see a mixture from around the world in one magazine, but I suspect some of the narrow minded modellers would not buy a magazine with foreign stuff in it.
Back to exhibitions and attitudes, maybe Jo Public is being denied access to foreign and non standard gauge modelling, and would actually welcome it if they had the chance to see it.
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Postby Igor » Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:46 pm

It is unfair to say that 00 modellers do not like narrow gauge as 16.5mm in 4mm scale equals 4' 1 1/2" which is narrow gauge by 7" lol.

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Postby WaterleyShunter » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:55 am

Si wrote:
Model railway exhibitions are places to entertain the paying public,


Here's where I think some of the problem lies. We might go to an exhibition with the intention of entertaining the general public and perhaps inspiring them to have a go at railway modelling. Others. who might see them selves as experienced and advanced modellers, go to exhibitions to sample the quality of others' layouts. they've paid their hard earned money and so they want to see some quality that follows the perceived wisdom gained over years of effort of what is an exhibition quality layout.

So with two different groups having entirely different views of what should be on display, is it any wonder that they don't always see eye to eye?


Surely it is possible to have both? I.e.: a layout that is modelled to a high standard (appreciated by fellow modellers) in an entertaining manner (appreciated by the general public)?

I can't give any specific names but have seen several such at exhibitions. There are also plenty of examples of individual models that can entertain both audiences. For instance, a model sawmill with working machinery will impress the general public with the novelty of moving parts and impress fellow modellers who can appreciate how difficult it must have been to construct.

I agree that some fellow modellers do not take narrow gauge and large scales seriously, having witnessed reactions to the Mendip Vale layout belonging to the Severn Mendip 16mm Group, of which I am a member.

I remember some comments when helping on the layout at NGSW 2012. One of our not-so-elder members was running his magnificent coal-fired live steamer that had taken him seven years to build. :shock: A man walked up to the layout, looked at the loco, said "There can't be much skill involved in something that big", and walked away again. We have also lost count of the number of times spectators have been heard to say things along the lines that 16mm/G scale things are just 'toys' and too big to be counted as models. :x :o :evil:

And that is without detailing the number of general public and even other modellers who have never ever heard of narrow/minimum gauge, or think that all narrow gauge is 2ft and found in Wales, or automatically assume any railway less than standard gauge to be a 'toy' railway that does not serve any serious purpose.

So it seems that the trouble with criticism by layout viewers is to do with misunderstanding and making assumptions based on too little knowledge as much as any matter of opinions about modelling. How to fill in this knowledge deficit is another matter altogether.

And its best not to go near the subject of how much of society views railway modellers, railway enthusiasts, or indeed railways and rail transport, models, modelmaking and modellers in general. I will only say that Thomas The Tank Engine has done more harm than good to ferroequinology.

Now returning soapbox to cupboard....

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Postby bonneville » Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:05 pm

Personally, I think people who feel they can comment or critisise other peoples work when not invited to do so are missing the point of why we all do this sort of thing as a hobby.

For as long as man has had hobbies, he has been divided into two categories; The ones that actually DO the hobby, make mistakes, and have a laugh along the way, and the ones that fill their heads with all the useless information, but never actually do anything with it, apart from inflict it upon anyone in close proximity. It shows a complete lack of social skills.These wonderful folks also feel that the entire modelling community MUST also be interested in the exact same facet of the hobby as they are, and look no further than the tiny boundary they make for themselves. Hell, I work in a model railway shop, and have many times been asked about my favourite GWR locomotives are. Sometimes I answer "GWR, Whats that?". There is life outside of the Great Western, but this is news to some folks.

Over the years I have done my fair share of contest judging for the IPMS and have met many people who felt that they DESERVED to win in their chosen category because they feel that they know their stuff, and not because of their modelling ability.
I have taken great pleasure in reminding a few of these nitwits that this is NOT the case, and the modeling ability is not of "the required standard", and that I am judging the model, not the individual.

A model has to "speak" to me to award it any kind of merit. I do not like looking at flat lifeless model that may well be well researched and executed by some know-it-all, and neither do most members of the public.

For me, the only time a model should have ANY negative judgement passed upon it, is if it is entered into a contest where it is put up to be judged. Otherwise, who are we to critise someone elses relaxation time?

Just my two cents worth.


:roll:
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Postby Thorness » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:56 pm

"There is life outside of the Great Western, but this is news to some folks. "

In about 1976 while our club was staging its exhibition two of the members (both in their 60s) would have come to blows if they had not been restrained by other members over whether the LMS was better than the GWR. Intolerance and fanaticism are dangerous in any walk of life!

At the time our narrow gauge group(4 of us) was modelling a slate line in 7mm scale on 12mm track, most people thought we were completely mad, even those who were aware of narrow gauge.

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Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:01 pm

I don't think it is just the standard gauge bunch who are narrow minded. There does seem to be a concentration of OO9 an O16.5 modellers, who seem to bend every conceivable narrow gauge from 18in to 3ft to fit their particular modelling gauge.
I have even seen 1/32 on 16.5mm referred to as Gn24 on a current eBay listing. That worries me a bit. Is G scale taking over the model railway world, bad enough ranging from 1/20 don to 1/29, but 1/32 is going too far. Mind you does not help that Gauge One is now 10mm/foot ie 1/30 not 1/32.
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Postby Willow Creek Traction » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:51 pm

WaterleyShunter wrote:So it seems that the trouble with criticism by layout viewers is to do with misunderstanding and making assumptions based on too little knowledge as much as any matter of opinions about modelling. How to fill in this knowledge deficit is another matter altogether.
Ridiculously simple answer to that problem, stop them doing similarly in the remaining totality of their lives and they'll stop doing it here.
Igor wrote:It is unfair to say that 00 modellers do not like narrow gauge as 16.5mm in 4mm scale equals 4' 1 1/2" which is narrow gauge by 7" lol.
You have amused me greatly, not all mortals are equal to that task.
Thorness wrote:...would have come to blows if they had not been restrained by other members over whether the LMS was better than the GWR.
Dudes, get a hobby.
Or therapy for your self esteem issues.
Whichever.
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Postby KEG » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:22 am

I have even seen 1/32 on 16.5mm referred to as Gn24 on a current eBay listing.


As long as they quote a scale and a gauge, I do not really care what it is called.

I someone quotes "G-Scale" I do not really trust too much in his knowledge. But Gn15 meanwhile is more or less established for something around 1 : 25 - 1 : 22,5 on 16,5 track. Very often with freelance prototypes.

Some modellers at exibitions actually refuse using the term Gn15. They simply discribe their work with a gauge / scale combination. For me that is OK, as long I like the standard of modelling shown.

I simply enjoy what I am doing. If it entertains others sometimes, I don´t mind. If somebody hates it, it is not my problem. If too many hate it and aks their entrance fee back, the exibition managers will not book me again.

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Postby Narrow gauge Nutter » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:25 pm

I have noticed this more and more on evilbay and other places.

Gauge 1 is 1:32

G is 1:24, etc.

Why are they nearly always listed together as if they are the same.....?
Some things can be used on either, and depending on how accurate (rubber-gauging) you want to be, lots can be used.
But they are not the same Scale

Now, I am not a "rivet counter", but I am often impressed by the modeling by these people.

I wish I could model that well :oops:

Everyone should just enjoy what they do - but please can we have some accuracy in the description - it can be very confusing!
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Postby fatmac » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:38 am

Unfortunately, it is only recently that I had come across the scale/gauge of Gn15, which I found somewhere whilst trawling the internet.

Not being 'talked' about in modelling press seems to sideline other scale/gauge combinations into obscurity also.

What can be done to bring it to the attention of others?
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:06 pm

Gn15 has managed to get into mainstream model railway press. Railway Modeller has recently had articles, and I have had stuff in Continental Modeller. Obviously given its connections MTI has also featured Gn15, but other UK magazines have not been as good. Voie Libre in France is having articles occasionally, and hopefully the exhibition in October will help.
What I tend to say to those who comment on lack of articles about their specialised area, is write an article themselves, a lot easier these days with computers and digital cameras.
In a lot of ways it isn't the magazines that are the problem but some of the people running exhibitions who think that model railways are confined to 2 or 3 scales, and then mainly British standard gauge. Best way to combat this is to batter on the door till they open it. Join a local club, give them a new layout for free. Just be prepared to explain what Gn15 is, every 5 minutes.
Simon Dawson
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Postby chris stockdale » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:25 pm

fatmac wrote:
What can be done to bring it to the attention of others?



The late, great Carl Arendt was an early adopter of Gn15. If you have never seen his amazing website, still being maintained since he left us for the 'big train set in the sky' go here:

http://www.carendt.com/index.html

Although the website has stuff on a range of scales and gauges here's a few stats grabbed from it:

'First, our statistics measure our success in attracting and holding readers. The site is currently receiving over 2000 unique visitors a day (around 70,000 per month). During a typical month, visitors come from 70 or more countries around the world. We welcomed our two-millionth visitor in October 2009.'

So, although Gn15 is not mainstream it might be better known than you think...

bestest,

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Postby KEG » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:43 pm

What can be done to bring it to the attention of others?


You should ask what YOU can do.

Well, build some outstanding models, take sharp and well composed pictures, write an article and sell it to the magazines.

00/HO or N Gazettes are probably not the best adress. but all those Narrow gauge publications all over the world just love to buy good material. That´s how some of us got there to make some pocket money or even pay the rent.

Of course, if the material has shown for free in forums before, why should a reader invest money for a magazine?

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Juergen

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Postby John New » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:44 pm

Si wrote:
Model railway exhibitions are places to entertain the paying public,


Here's where I think some of the problem lies. We might go to an exhibition with the intention of entertaining the general public and perhaps inspiring them to have a go at railway modelling. Others. who might see them selves as experienced and advanced modellers, go to exhibitions to sample the quality of others' layouts. they've paid their hard earned money and so they want to see some quality that follows the perceived wisdom gained over years of effort of what is an exhibition quality layout.

So with two different groups having entirely different views of what should be on display, is it any wonder that they don't always see eye to eye?

I could quite understand someone like this not 'getting' your impressionist APAs, Simon. Their layouts merely mindlessly describe reality, whereas your layouts intentionally interpret it. And I have to say that I believe that your route is by far the harder one to do well - perhaps another reason why they might not want to 'get it'?


It remains the nub of this issue. I like 09 and Gn15 because i like the prototypes. Also I haven't the watchmaking skills to do P4 in 4mm scale nor do I like some of the elitist snobbery surrounding aspects of that approach. However I do aim as high as I can to be realistic so some of the ultra whimsical I admire as models because of the skill that's visible in their making but cringe over them as model representations purporting to be a model railway.


The human mind sees what it expects to see. The public even outside the realms of rivet counters have more knowledge of standard/regular trains than NG so I feel are more forgiving of errors as their brain just corrects it. A modelling flaw in an NG model is therefore more likely to be noticed
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