Terminology?

A general talking shop for any subject under the sun (even Monty Python). This would also be a good place to make suggestions about the site itself or about these forums (or "fora", if you're particularly pedantic).

Moderator: GnATTERbox Moderators

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Terminology?

Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:28 am

I know this has been discussed before, and unfortunately we are stuck with the system we have, but on the O16.5(?) forum someone asked what the difference as between O16.5 and On30.
There was some interesting things said about origins, and I think terminology introduced by certain manufacturers has not helped.
This possibly does not impact on non narrow gauges , but probably helps to confuse the average punter at exhibitions. I know of a few people who think N gauge is the same as OO9 narrow gauge.
Happily we here have adopted what might be the correct way forward. Gn15, despite the confusion on what G scale actually is, combines modelling scale and prototype gauge in its name. Its a pitty the terms O9 and G9 have been allowed to slip through, but that might be partly due to the O scale narrow gauge people. I as meddling with O scale on 9mm track 30 years ago, it was a good match for 15in gauge, then someone introduced kits for the Horwich 18in locos, and the term O9 seems to have been introduced. This rubber gauging might help some, but confuses others.
Now back to the discussion on O16.5 versus On30. This is not helped by the use of 2(or3) different O scales. To get round some of the problems of modelling 2ft gauge, some adopted a more correct 14mm gauge, but instead of calling it On24 called it O14, further adding to the confusion.
Some of it is political(yes it does exist in our hobby), but some of it is down to practicality . I have nothing against building models as accurate as possible, as long as you keep to the rules and don't bend them for your own convenience(as many rivet counters do).
I don't want to be diverted in that direction, my point is terminology. The current systems are a compromise. We are probably stuck with them. Main reason is commercial backing for certain names. Some are better than others, but they should describe what is actually in the tin.
It is my opinion, but if we use terminology to describe our narrow gauge models, then it needs to be snappy, like Gn15, and combines modelled scale and prototype gauge. That would be a simple standard to follow, but I am sure there would be a lot of diehards who did not want to change. Its a minefield I have entered I know. It is not helped by the mixture of imperial and metric systems.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

User avatar
Jon Randall
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:18 pm
Location: NW Leics, England
Interests: Narrow gauge railways, modelling

Postby Jon Randall » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:25 pm

I don't see much of a problem as long as you can work with two or three systems.
The USA and British systems use scale and gauge in the description. The European uses the scale and a letter which I assume denotes the gauge.

I'll take a 0 gauge on 14mm track model representing a two-foot scale prototype as an example.
The British call it 014 telling us the scale and the model's gauge but not the prototype's gauge.
The Americans call it On2 and/or On24 telling us the scale and prototype's gauge but not the model's gauge. I presume the "n" means "narrow?

So we can tell that Gn15 uses the US system so it tells us it is G scale and represents 15" gauge prototypes.
G9 and 09 omit the "n" so the 9 represents the gauge of the model.
G9 is generally used as 9mm is just under 8" in 1/22.5 or just over 8" in 1/24 neither of which are common prototype gauges so rubber gauging between 7.25" and 10.25" is common and Gn7.25 doesn't really trip off the tongue.

I wouldn't say that 09 has slipped through as it uses the British system so you can call it 0n15 or 0n18 if you prefer.

It doesn't matter what you call it, most of the public and even railway modellers won't know what you mean as it isn't 00/H0 even if you explain it to them.

Chips, french fries and pomme frites.
Jon Randall

Needs to stop procrastinating and start modelling

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Postby rue_d_etropal » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:20 am

One reason I started his thread was because of a question on another forum asking whether O16.5 was the same as On30. That's someone in the hobby, not the general public. In USA everyone including those producing model vehicles has backed 1/48 scale, it makes sense as it is totally imperial, but in Australia/New Zealand there seems to be a bit of a dilemma, according to one modeller, and that is the narrow gauge trains are in 1/48, and the vehicles are 1/43.5 as that was the historical scale for British/colonial diecast vehicles namely Dinky. I presume there are vehicles(kits?) produced for 1/48. An interesting aside is that many of the British commercial diecast vehicles are actually 1/50 scale, making model railways a real mixture of scales, some purporting to be dead scale(?).
Aside from that I actually like the term Gn7.25. It isn't as much of a mouth full as the original name for On30 which I have been told was On2 and a half (probably shortened when written down).
As I model in 1/35 and 1/32(representing different prototype gauges), I have thought about terminology, but this hasn't been helped by Gauge 1 deciding it wanted to be 10mm/ft not 1/32, allowing commercial G scale(gauge?) manufacturers to stretch G up to 1/29, and some of offer items for G1 as G . This has affected some here, when trying to find figures of the right size for Gn15.
One thing about having standard terminology is that everyone is then speaking the same language. Mixing metric and imperial has not only led to some relatively minor mistakes in the past, but also some horrendous engineering blunders.
Proper common terminology might be difficult to introduce now, especially when many prefer to keep what they have grown up with, but it might help the hobby in the long term, especially now that alternative scale/gauge combinations are getting more popular.
When one of my APA boxed layouts is finished I will somehow have to work out how to describe it. It uses 9mm gauge track but is 1/32 scale. The G1 scale question does not help, so I will probably opt for just specifying the scale and model gauge.
I have found that telling exhibition managers the scale sometimes leads to mistakes, and I saw one well-known WW1 layout in 1/35 scale being listed as O scale(O16.5?) at a big exhibition. So far that hasn't happened with my own 1/35 scale WW1 layout, but it will have new signs for next exhibition so at least the general public are well informed.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

User avatar
Adrian
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 718
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:18 am
Location: Melbourne Australia
Interests: model railways including Gn15

Postby Adrian » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:02 am

G'day Simon
Just a few of my thoughts on the '0' scale narrow gauge naming debate.

Long long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) I was a member of a narrow gauge group who built modular layouts for exhibition display.
(We were an egotistical bunch of codgers)
We started with small stuff but as we all grew older we gradually changed to '0' scale.
Because we were a diverse group of individuals we had our own definition of '0' scale. Anything between 1/50 to 1/43.
(Being of English extraction, my personal favorite was 1/43).

Once the group was at an exhibition where the local magazine photographer wanted to take some pictures to publish in the magazine.
First he chose to photograph my module --- a wharf scene --- the boat and road vehicle were both 1/43.
He was not happy with taking a photo unless the train was also 1/43 scale.

It was only later that I realized that my module was actually a mixture of 1/43 and 1/48 scales while the train was a 1/45 scale loco, a 1/43 scale coach with 1/48 scale figures.
As well as the whole module having been built with selective compression.
( Well the wharf was a representation of the Echuca wharf which would be over 24 foot long if in 1/43 scale.)

What scale/gauge did our members call our modules ? 0n16.5 or On30 or 'O' scale narrow gauge --- ( depending upon which member you asked.)
Was our group's version of 'O' scale a 'mish-mash' ? Yes.
Did it detract from the visual pleasure of the layout ? No.
Did any of the rivet counters notice ? No.
Were we happy with our choice ? Yes
Did we have fun ? A definite affirmative, especially when explaining our definition of our scale/gauge choice to self proclaimed 'experts'.
(Boy! We enjoyed messing with the minds of the 'establishment' !)

I do understand that we are all different and some like to build exactly to scale, otherwise why was the proto48 standard invented ?
Personally I like the freedom to pick and chose and providing the result does look 'believable' and 'right' I am a happy camper.

But as far a finding a common name -- On16.5 or On30 or whatever, it is like trying to nail a jelly onto a wall.
Impossible !
We tread our own paths and in my opinion we will never all agree.
That is until we all become like the Borg, in Star Trek, each individual will happily live in his own version of the world as he/she sees it.

My personal favorites for names at the moment are Gn15 (1/24 scale on 16.5 mm track representing 15 inch prototypes )
and On16.5 (1/43 scale on 16.5 mm track representing 30 inch prototypes )
although I do know that others have their own names and different definitions for them both.

But most of my measurements are taken with a rubber ruler to allow for any flights of fancy that I might have.
I realize that this is not perfection but I also believe that I live in a less than perfect world and I am happy with my own choices.
(I also have a rubber wall for banging my head against !)

I would also like to add that these thoughts, as written here, are mine and probably not everybody agrees with them but that is their right.

With that now having been said I will get back to my On16.5, ( or is it On30 ?) turntable that I am having fun building.

So have a good day
Adrian Hoad
I might be daft but not stupid.

User avatar
Willow Creek Traction
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:14 am
Location: Boonville, Missouri, USA
Interests: HO, On30, G/Hn15, regular G, kites, model rockets, the occasional model boat, retro sci-fi miniatures game.

Postby Willow Creek Traction » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:19 am

And then there is Kalmbach publishing of Model Railroader, who, in their high and knightly being, know that all else are in error and they alone correctly publish it as On2 1/2.

The rallying cry at the On30 Conspiracy being "No Tuna Halves!"
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

User avatar
KEG
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:42 am
Location: Duesseldorf
Interests: creative Nonsense

Postby KEG » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:16 am

Who cares for 0 / G / HO terminology confusions, regarding scale / gauge combinations.

For Gn15 we have to build most of our stuff ourselves anyway, so we know what we are doing (most of the time).

Image


Image

I play with trains for my private amusement and if I happen to exibit somewehre, it is mainly, to entertain the paying audience. And of course, there is enough room to combine modules with some more Gn15-Modellers.

Have Fun

Juergen

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:23 am

Juergen,
I think that because thee is some discussion here, that I have actually succeeded in getting people talking. If we all just built model railways for our own enjoyment, then in today's world the hobby will shrink and eventually die out. There are too many other activities competing, fueled by technology.
e all have a responsibility to help the hobby, and make it as easy for others to get into. It doesn't always get the right press, but we know the benefits and how much fun it is.
Anyway, back to terminology. Not sure if its my philosophy background or my work in IT, but I enjoy studying systems. Everything is part of a system . The kits we build have instructions. Badly designed kits or those with poor instruction, might be fun for some, a challenge, but to the majority of people , they are a poor turn off.
If you run an exhibition, but fail to publicise it or don't put up signs directing people to it, don't be surprised when attendance is low. I have seen that happen on too many occasions.
Any business supporting/supplying our hobby has to make sure what they supply is good enough and they can actually deliver. I don't want this to spark any comments about hat has happened in the past, but it is very easy no something small can do so much damage.
I suspect the terminology we use won't change, but it is I feel still worth while talking about. At the very least, it is generating conversation here, and that is what any online forum needs to survive.
Sorry if this sounds too serious a discussion, but I keep telling people, outside the hobby, how well we as a hobby organise exhibition, normally without any government funding. If we are seen as odd people who just play with trains, then we won't be taken seriously.
For me model railways are part of my creativity. Being creative is a very important part of the way we as a species live. But, all though history it has been under attack, because creativity teaches us to think, and question the world, and there are too many people out there who would prefer to have followed who did not ask questions.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

User avatar
KEG
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:42 am
Location: Duesseldorf
Interests: creative Nonsense

Postby KEG » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:33 pm

If we all just built model railways for our own enjoyment, then in today's world the hobby will shrink and eventually die out.


Wrong. If we keep on building interesting and entertaining model railway layouts and demonstrate how much fun it can be, more people will join the hobby and the fun. If we talk too much about rules or regulations, we will frighten newcomers.

Being creative is a very important part of the way we as a species live.


True. But no one develops creativity by only reading or talking about it. One actually has to start playing with materials, colour and form and see what happens.

Working in Gn15 you are lost without creativity. The more the better. You can do whatever you want as long as you have a convincing story for it.
After all, a railroads purpose is mainly to transport goods or people from A to B.

For some reasons, I don´t feel responsible for the future of any hobby.
Its my money and my time I spent for it.

Have Fun

Juergen

User avatar
fatmac
GnatterBox Centurion
GnatterBox Centurion
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:43 am
Location: Surrey/Hants Border UK
Interests: Free Open Source Software, Cycling, & model railways in the larger scales

Postby fatmac » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:38 pm

I can see a relevance to both ways of describing scale/gauge combos :-

0-16.5 = 0 scale on 16.5mm track (ours = G-16.5)

whereas

0n2 = 0 scale (ng) of prototype 2 foot gauge (ours = Gn15)

The difference is between the '-' & the 'n' - denoting which kind of referencing is being used.

The above are probably easier to understand than saying 1:87 scale, meaning H0.
(Or 1:43 meaning British 0 gauge, 1:48 meaning American 0 gauge, etc.)
Just Playing Trains!

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Postby rue_d_etropal » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:06 pm

It is interesting that the 2 scales(????) that cause the biggest problem are O and G. G now covers scales from 1/20.3 to 1/29, and O can be 1/43.5, 1/45 and 1/48.
As a mathematician having different scales being considered the same is just not right. It makes a mockery of what the word 'scale actually means. Scale only means one thing, the ratio between the model and the real thing.

Interestingly the difference between 1/43.5 and 1/48 is very close to the difference between 1/32 and 1/35. With care items to different scales can be used together, but the differences are obvious when put side by side.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com

User avatar
KEG
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 1248
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:42 am
Location: Duesseldorf
Interests: creative Nonsense

Postby KEG » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:35 pm

As a mathematician having different scales being considered the same is just not right


Well you do not have to be a mathematican to tell, that some (few) toymakers treat their potential customers like idiots. OK, some seem to ask and pay for it.

If I go through he files of this forum, I have the impression, those which actually delivered and illustrated models or layouts, have done a very convincing job.
I´d love to see many of them together at some kind of Gn15 Convention. I am sure . no one would spend a single minute with Scale / Gauge discussions.

Have Fun

Juergen

User avatar
Adrian
Demi-Millegniumer
Demi-Millegniumer
Posts: 718
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:18 am
Location: Melbourne Australia
Interests: model railways including Gn15

Postby Adrian » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:11 am

G'day Juergen,

I´d love to see many of them together at some kind of Gn15 Convention.

I, for one, would love to attend such a convention.......

But the tyranny of distance makes such a visit a distant pipe dream unless it was held in 'the land down-under'. Or if I could come up trumps with the local lottery !

Which is one reason why I joined this forum.
The distance is simply not there when I sit in front of my computer.

I used to belong to a group of narrow gauge modelers but even though the members were 'local' to me, over the twenty plus years that I was a member I hate to think how many miles (kilometers) I must have clocked up just going to meetings.

Have a good day
Adrian Hoad

I might be daft but not stupid.

User avatar
rue_d_etropal
Millegniumer
Millegniumer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:55 pm
Location: Accrington and sometimes France
Interests: France, any narrow/minmum gauge 40cm,50cm , 60cm

Postby rue_d_etropal » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:24 am

Although a conference of Gn15 is not practical, there has been a big shift in what is appearing at exhibitions. As part of the group that attended RAMMA last October, thanks to Christopher Payne organising it, I can see that we are getting noticed. York show this year has a similar collection of minimum gauge modelling, again thanks to Christopher.
Getting narrow gauge past some of the diehard standard gauge exhibition managers is difficult, and it is even more difficult for some of our less than normal creations. What has helped me is getting articles published in magazines such as CM, and mentioning exhibitions I plan to be at. CM seem to be happier to publish articles about layouts attending exhibitions especially when you also have the fixtures set up. The 2 way publicity helps everyone involved.
Simon Dawson
(Simon D.),
Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
http://www.rue-d-etropal.com


Return to “Blether”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron