Don't Put the 'F' on the Door!

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Bilco
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Don't Put the 'F' on the Door!

Postby Bilco » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:22 pm

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Postby Gerry Bullock » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:02 pm

The 'F' was never on the door of the Loco; another Photoshop wind-up.
There's also an Alistair Darling version!
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:29 pm

Always a concern when photos posted here. I now only ever use my own photos directly, and use a link to others. This means source of photos can be seen, I hope.
I had seen this picture before, obviously a political job, now I realise it is not genuine.
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Postby Brack » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:01 pm

the F is on the door on one side, but Mr Salmond's likeness is not. I suspect that a large photo of a politician of any sort on the side of a train could put people off travelling...

(it is rather clever though - well done whoever thought of it. The Darling version feels like a very poor unoriginal comeback).

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Postby Gerry Bullock » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:43 pm

Brack wrote:the F is on the door on one side, but Mr Salmond's likeness is not.


Strange the photos I've seen do NOT have the 'F' on the door on either side.
Very unlikely that East Coast line would fall for the potential of LYING SCOTSMAN when door was open!
So little time, so many ideas!!!!! GerryB.

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Postby Bilco » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:11 pm

Bill

If at first you don't succeed, cheat.
Too soon old, too late smart.

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Postby Steve Holland » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:48 pm

At least Mr Salmond is on the side of something comfortable, even if it is a class 82 driving van trailer (aka a 'Skoda van') but at least it is on the end of a rake of proper carriages. Just come back from Edinburgh (great city but no narrow gauge :( ) spending 5 cramped and very uncomfortable hours on a Cross Country Trains class 221 'Voyager'. Are they the worst trains ever to run on the British network? Poor ventilation, constant vibration from the underfloor engines and seats that resemble upholstered planks! just like their sci-fi namesake I wish the whole class 220/221 'Voyager' fleet would disappear in to a wormhole and leave us with some decent trains!
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:31 pm

just had to travel from Wrexham back up to Lancashire.
The train from Wrexham was one of the newish '175' units I think. 2 coaches overcrowded. Luckily only short trip to Chester where I changed to Merseyrail, ex London 3rd rails train. I used these trains when they were first introduced in London, and yes they were not as comfortable as the old Mk1 based units, but I had not experienced the Nodding Donkeys then. the 30 year old electric units, might still have hard seats, but they are relatively quiet, and have good acceleration, and no vibration from noisy underfloor diesel engines.
My point is that rolling out a 3rd rail system across north west would improve services dramatically at a relatively low price. Having grown up with 3rd rail electrics, I see no reason for these expensive alternatives.
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Postby Steve Holland » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:08 am

From the day job, putting in dc traction would not be as cheap as you may think. All of the train detection and signalling circuits would have to be altered to be immune to the effects of dc traction - low voltage dc track circuits with 750V dc trains are not a good mix. Some recent work I did in the London area was a bit of an eye-opener as the rest of the UK uses dc circuits for line side signalling control circuits, whereas the ex Southern Region lines use ac for immunity from stray dc traction current.
Snow and ice on the third rail also cause no end of 'fun'. You also need more traction feeder stations as the trains draw a lot more current on third rail than their 25kV overhead fed equivalents.
Let's bring back steam :lol:
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:10 am

Steve,
I know what you say makes sense long term, but having to put up with the rubbish diesel units up here is crazy. I grew up down south, and travelled by train in all seasons, and did not encounter too many problems. The Merseyside 3rd rail exists for similar historical reasons to London system,and is more comfortable than the diesel alternatives.
If there is a problem with DC/AC then do it the same way as in London.
Increasingly I am thinking cost of electrification is being used as an excuse and we are getting fed up with excuses up here. We want better trains now(in fact we would be happy with any trains on some newly re-installed lines- Todmorden curve), not later, if ever.
Steam is not an option, however romantic it sounds.
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Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:01 pm

I know where you're coming from with the electrification. All new traction supplies are being connected to the 275kV or 400kV Super Grid instead of the 132kV Network as it was previously. I know of at least one existing 132kV/25kV site that is being upgraded to 400kV/25kV because of the power demands of the new locos/trains, obviously there is an increase in the cost of 400kV connections againt 132kV.

The biggest problem I can see with a new third rail installation is getting it past the regulations that say all live LV/MV/HV conductors, if not installed above a given height. must be screened to prevent contact by members of the public. The existing wire fencing is not up to code, and what would you do with the third rail in stations? Enclose the platforms and have doors that line up with the coach doors (like on the new Cross Rail)? Then there is the the subject of Level Crossings and someone blindly following a Sat-Nav device, the barriers would have to be modified to block the track against intrusion like the old hinged wooden gates did. I know there is an existing third rail system in use (and four rail on the Tube), but the important thing is 'existing'. New installations would be subject to the regulations (unless given an exemption by an act of Parliament). You can imagine the legal implications of the first contact with a live rail by a tresspasser........

Just me being a wet blanket here you understand..........
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:49 pm

just excuses not to give us a decent railway system. If you grow up near 3rd rail train tracks you know not to play on them. It has been said that H&S has been used as an excuse, so why not put fences between pavements and roads. Sorry, but no excuse for incompetent management. There is always a way round a problem.
3rd rail would be a good way to stop trespassing.
Instead of looking at the 'system' overall, look at individual parts, ask why AC is always better than DC these days, look at old technology instead old the latest gadget. Remember some of the southern electric stock is just new bodies on old chassis.
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Postby More_Cats_Than_Sense » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:35 pm

Well, I'd disagree that a live third rail is a good way to stop tresspassing, those of us who work in the electricty supply industry know that live exposed HV and 2.4m high fences with big warning signs doesn't stop tresspassing, or the deaths of those who do tresspass. I understand your point of those who grew up in an area with third rail though, but I'd bet that there was still those that did play on the tracks. Maybe it needs a culture change within society to respect such things.

AC or DC, interesting subject. Before the availability of high current power electronics, then AC had the edge. Converting DC to different voltages was not as simple as doing it with AC. I remember reading about some 1500kV DC multiple units, in order to produce the 48V for the control systems they used a motor-generator unit. Nowadays though it might just be a case of tradition within the industry that AC is the preferred system. PWM DC controllers give maximum torque to the motor with the ability to control the speed the same way that variable frequency control does with AC motors.
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:25 pm

there does need to be a big culture change. One where people take responsibility and don't expect compensation for their own mistakes. First thing would be to stop law firms advertising and ambulance chasing.
There as a case a few years ago near Liverpool, where some children were climbing on top of coaches and touched live wire with obvious result. The parents blamed Railtrack for not making site fully secure.
As for AC or DC, it varies across Europe, in fact even across some countries and international trains are built to switch systems, both power and signalling. Eurostar used to be both 3rd rail and overhead power, as are the electric trains than run Bedford to Gatwick (I think). Obviously more complicated but not impossible.
One of the daftest lines up here is Liverpool to Preston via Ormskirk. Merseyrail runs to Ormskirk where you have to walk along platform to catch a worn out diesel train. Even the rails are connected. If they can't see to continue the 3rd rail, as there would be complications at Preston, a dual voltage train could do the complete journey. I am not thinking high speed intercity lines but the slower ones which could help so many more people get around the region.
This thread has taken a branch-line, but it is politics and business interests that are stopping us having a decent train service. Every time I come back from France I can't believe how much traffic is on our poorly conditioned roads. If the railways were maintained in same ways there would not be any trains running. It is like comparing apples with oranges. That's the big problem with letting politicians(public and private) run the country.
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Postby Jon Randall » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:46 pm

Go Nuclear, tomorrow's clean power 8)
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Postby rue_d_etropal » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:45 pm

Japan :?: :mrgreen:
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Narrow gauge Francophile interested in 1m, 60cm,50cm , 40cm and smaller gauges . Build in scales from 1/6th to 1/24th. Also 1/32nd and 1/35th using 16.5mm track to represent 50cm and 60cm gauges.
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Postby Willow Creek Traction » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:19 am

More_Cats_Than_Sense wrote:Maybe it needs a culture change within society to respect such things.
Perhaps even for things, generally.
Thoughts in no particular order at 02:15 am:
Interesting as a Yank in central Missouri farm country watching this conversation.
One of the first train books I bought with my own money in the early 1980s was F.J.G. Haut's History of the Electric Locomotive, volume 2, motorcoach trains and industrial locomotives. At least I think that is the full title, book is back in other room.
Even though have lived in Missouri since 1987, and only since 2007 out here in farm country, my life from 1963 to 1987 was lived in suburban areas around Navy installations, or inland offices in the case of Georgia.
With my health as now is, I can't handle the congestion and commotion of urban and suburban areas, but have long been interested in urban rail transport.
And also the classic midwestern interurban trollies.
It is fun to know y'all and look, listen, learn, and sometimes unashamedly eavesdrop :lol: Would be grand if Scotty could sometime beam me over to meet y'all in person: I am thankful the internet allows me to at least meet your writing. 8)
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934

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Postby Willow Creek Traction » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:21 am

rue_d_etropal wrote:This thread has taken a branch-line,
but it is the branch lines which get people to and from their ultimate destination in order to achieve their purpose for the journey.

rue_d_etropal wrote:Every time I come back from France I can't believe how much traffic is on our poorly conditioned roads.
Interesting how that fits the theme of several books being purchased and read the last couple months. Been on a bit of a shopping spree on Amazon on topics which have interested me for a long time - automobiles and urban/suburban sprawl; sustainable downtowns, bethey metropolis or like our population 8300 rural county seat railroad/riverlnading/farm burg - space flight - canals - ancient history - this time not getting RR books, looking for other things since have been kind of 'burned out' on trains and model trains this year after putting so much in to our club over last couple years. Today, Saturday, in a bout 7 hours at 09:00 will only be 3rd time this year I've been to club meeting.

My hands are giving me huge issues and I want to say so much about what the automobile has doen to landscape and culture andto tell abvout the books I have been reading.

Again, this is where it would be grand to hop across town, be it transit or provate auto, or bike ot hike, and visit in person.
later, Forrest Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, July, 1934


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